<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>I'm also on the side to support free-software, especially open,
but i'm also open to closed source software if they work fine,
however, I know that many of people in the OSM community are
against closed source softwares as you can experience.</p>
<p>Also, what you show of the OSM-US Slack is a pretty good example
why Slack is good, it has threading, meanwhile Matrix (and the
client, Element) doesn't, which is a shame. If Element was as good
as Slack, i would use that, I mean, in Hungary, we only have
Matrix-based OSM community other than the mailing list which is
also on debate, because we are using google groups instead of
mailman (but according to some people there that's way outdated)
or similar email server. There is the Forums too but noone uses it
(because, heck, you don't get the answer instantly, nor you get
notified about it, then why), I used forums but I really see that
they won't work well here in OSM.</p>
<p>SCS Software has a well working forum, since that's where people
report the bugs about their game like American Truck Simulator or
Euro Truck Simulator 2, and post mods, maybe discuss something,
but in Hungary, at least what I noticed, nobody uses forums, or
just a few people. I know, the international OSM community uses
forums, but that's another thing, because there are many many
nationalities.<br>
</p>
<p>Otherwise, all of the things you mentioned about Slack can be
achieved in Matrix too, however, it bugs me to "verify all
devices" to have big security, but that's what it is.</p>
<p>So, that's my two cents on this matter, because i've read
somewhat of this HUUGE thread, I don't have time to read all of
them but I got the point.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/13/21 3:52 AM, Adam Franco wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMN3sBc5+96DvRCddVmpRnOU=S6OOwd4sxDe8Jz3P-p=GrQ3dw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I'm a major free-software advocate and have been for more
than two decades -- all of the software I write personally and
professionally is open-source (and GPL where possible). That
said, I can hold my nose and use proprietary tools when the
advantage those tools provide is above and beyond what is
possible with open-source tools AND where that proprietary
software is serving an ancillary helper function rather than
underpinning the core product/goal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I've really enjoyed the community engagement I've had
through the OSMUS Slack, I'd be happy to switch to Discourse
or another open-source system that has similar functionality.
For those not familiar with it, these are the major advantages
I've found in using Slack for OSM-related communication and
which I hope any replacement forum or Discourse system can
replicate:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/10rzmspt15R2oVAjm5N5iIwlHR5PgvWLg/view?usp=sharing"
moz-do-not-send="true">Screen-shot of the OSM-US Slack</a><br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><b>User-created "channels" / "sub-forums"</b><br>
Unlike the mailing lists which require admin-assistance to
create and are relatively undiscoverable, Slack allows any
user to create new "channels" and for all other users to
browse the list of channels and subscribe in just one
click so they can follow along. This self-organizing
principle lets the community self-organize on areas of
interest from highway shields, to trails, or golf. It's
easy to browse the list for topics of interest and also
easy to scan the list of channels you've subscribed to for
updates.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Discussion threads within "channels"<br>
</b>Slack only allows one level of threading which can be
a bit limiting (we've had threads with over 100 posts!),
but being able to break out into threads within a topic
area and follow that thread (or not) is important. Without
threads, some channels can be too "chatty" and get
overwhelming to follow. For example, I lurk in the
#general channel and only follow threads that are of
particular interest, whereas in #highway-classification I
follow every thread. One annoying limitation of Slack is
that it doesn't let you auto-follow every thread in a
channel, making it possible to miss a threaded reply that
came in later after you've read a post.<br>
<br>
While I can mute mailing-list threads, lots of times
people munge the subject lines and I keep seeing the same
topic popping up again and again.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>"Likes" / Emoji responses<br>
</b>While seemingly trivial, emoji responses allow people
to give a basic response to a post without cluttering the
chat with lots of "Yes!", "Thank you", "Wow!" posts that
ping all subscribers and annoy them with extra "chatter".
They are also a simple way to do light-weight polling.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Image attachments<br>
</b>To share the screen-shot above with this mailing list
I had to figure out a way to put my image in a publicly
accessible place, then get the URL for it, then confirm
that the URL was visible to others in a private browser,
then link to that in this email. I'd have attached the
screen shot to this email, but I was afraid that the
mailing list would strip it or some subscribers wouldn't
get the message at all because it was too big.<br>
<br>
Easy, built-in image sharing is key to illustrating
concepts and makes the conversation much more streamlined.
Slack does this well, as to many other forum systems.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Basic formatting<br>
Bold</b>, <i>italics</i>, <span
style="font-family:monospace">code</span>, <a
href="https://www.example.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">links</a>.
These just aid expression.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Near real-time messaging<br>
</b>While composing posts, Slack shows new messages that
come in before yours. This makes it easy to not repeat
what someone else just said more eloquently. It also helps
keep people from talking past each other by keeping the
group conversation in a single stream. Does Discourse do
this? This is a big problem with email where the response
delays are long. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Customization of notifications, read/unread,
subscriptions<br>
</b>Most email clients aren't terrible at this. I like
being able to have my Slack chat window open and see a
list of new posts in channels I'm subscribed to and new
replies to threads I'm following. I haven't used Discourse
enough to know how it handles subscriptions and
notifications, but some forum software is much worse than
email or Slack in this regard. If it doesn't keep track of
things I want to follow then it will become overwhelming
to use.<br>
<br>
</li>
<li><b>Direct messages</b><br>
I don't use these much, but they are great for reaching
out with a personal note of thanks or consolation after
witnessing a challenging interaction. This is easy in
email.<br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 8:26
PM Evin Fairchild <<a href="mailto:evindfair@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">evindfair@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 12, 2021,
4:30 PM Ian Dees <<a href="mailto:ian.dees@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ian.dees@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Email is not a great communication platform for
many people to have useful conversations. It's
easy to write lengthy posts that slide off topic.
It's easy to expand or shift the topic in an email
you're writing while someone else is writing a
response, making it easy for people to talk past
one another and not make any progress on a
consensus. These things combine to make email
mailing lists a pretty negative/unfriendly
communications channel for lots of people.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, mailing lists are technically difficult
for some people to understand. Some email clients
format emails weirdly, making it hard to follow
what's going on. Some people top-post, some people
quote-post, some people bottom-post.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As list moderator, it's very difficult to
maintain community norms on a mailing list. I
can't move posts over to another topic to
encourage people to stay on topic. If I want a
cooling off period I have to moderate the whole
list. To block spam, I have to moderate all new
posters.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Totally agree with what you're saying, and
I've experienced many of the things you're saying myself.
I've been on this mailing list for probably like 9(?)
years and when I first joined OSM in 2010, even back then
I thought it was odd that mailing lists were used as a
communication platform for the OSM community. It seemed
utterly archaic to me. After all, forums are much better
for this type of discussion and those were a thing in 2004
when OSM started out! </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A forum was added a few years after I
joined, which was a welcome addition but even I haven't
really used it at all. I bet it would have gotten more use
if it had replaced the mailing lists at the time it was
introduced.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>One thing to note is that OSMF is considering
replacing the existing forum, Q&A website, and
maybe eventually the mailing lists with an
instance of Discourse at <a
href="https://community.openstreetmap.org/"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://community.openstreetmap.org/</a>.
I encourage folks interested in this topic to
check it out and leave feedback.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">This seems really interesting. Would love to
see Discourse replace the mailing lists!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:sans-serif">Personally,
I like Slack, but I do understand some people's
reluctance to use it due to it not being an open source
platform. However it's great to be able to have a really
good chat platform. The thing I like most about it is
that there's a way to have discussion threads so that of
someone asks a question, the replies are all in one
place. </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:sans-serif">And besides,
chat platforms like Slack, Discord, IRC, etc have their
advantages over email and forums in that it feels more
like a natural back and forth conversation rather than
just a bunch of monologues. People don't generally talk
in super long monologues in most face to face
conversations. There's usually lots of back and forth in
most casual conversations, especially when a group of
people are trying to come to an agreement on something,
which is what most of the discussions on this mailing
list are about.</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So in short, I would personally support
replacing this mailing list with Discourse. And I really
like Slack and intend to continue using it as many others
have done.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">-Evin</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-us mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org">Talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>