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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Hi, Andy,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D">Thanks for all of this—there was plenty to think about.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D">It’s true that the duplicate polygons are not the biggest problem here. Our intent is just to help by cleaning up the
data so that it is easier for editors to correct the features. We did this work in Canada, too, in collaboration with the community and learned a lot from them. (<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2021-December/010184.html">Here’s the
conversation thread</a>.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D">As to our methods, our plan is to
</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black">fix the violations as they appear in
<a href="http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox=">
Osmose</a>. For instance, this is the link for the features to be fixed in the Louisiana state: <a href="http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?country=usa_louisiana&item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox="><span style="color:black">http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?country=usa_louisiana&item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox=</span></a>;
this is an example of Illinois: <a href="http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?country=usa_illinois&item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox="><span style="color:black">http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?country=usa_illinois&item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox=</span></a>;
and so on.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black">The count shown in <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/TTmechanicalupdates/Fix_issue_with_duplicated_inner_polygons_in_United_States#Bot_runs"><span style="color:#3B73AF">the
table</span></a> on the wiki is the one taken from <a href="http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/en/issues/open?item=1170&source=&class=1&username=&bbox="><span style="color:#3B73AF">Osmose</span></a>, and dates back to 8 February 2022, when we first published this
documentation. We've just added a few words of explanation and a general link to this Osmose violation so that hopefully there are no more misunderstandings.</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black">It is true, as you say, that a double inner polygon might appear on features that have incorrect geometry or incorrect tags or are generally badly captured so that even if we
fix the violation as logged by Osmose, it will still leave the feature itself incorrect. Still, in cleaning up the data, we are moving things along in the right direction. Our aim is to make small contributions that we know will be good for the map.<br>
<br>
We would like to go ahead with the plan as outlined below, but if you have further concerns, please let me know. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:black">Courtney</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#172B4D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Andy Townsend <ajt1047@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022 at 6:58 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>talk-us@openstreetmap.org <talk-us@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Talk-us] [bot] Proposal to fix issue with duplicated inner polygons in the United States<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p>Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>First - a caveat - I've never been to Louisiana, and much of this email is based on tidying up some similar issues in New Jersey at the weekend (at
<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Fchangeset%2F117636871&data=04%7C01%7Cosm%40tomtom.com%7C14d1f96f4afe422a142108d9f5315c32%7C374f80267b544a3ab87d328fa26ec10d%7C0%7C0%7C637810415392632010%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=xFmPYlFLUS2zZEC9dEElwLrZPEYqqd5SUxZdIabypYA%3D&reserved=0">
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117636871</a> and following). However, the "duplicate inner polygon" issue was very much present there.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The biggest import issues (apart from the actual "golf fixing" that I was trying to do) that I had wasn't "duplicate inner polygons" (in any editor it's easy to move them together), they were instead:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
In some cases the landuse imports no longer represented reality (a recreation ground that wasn't; woods that had been completely been remodeled for a golf course)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
In other cases it looked like the import misclassified what was not normally or not currently wetland as "wetland" in OSM - I couldn't see any break in the trees. Maybe the "wetland" areas just had some sort of legal protection on them or some sort of flood
risk?<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Some of the relations involved were very, very silly. <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2Frelation%2F5884686&data=04%7C01%7Cosm%40tomtom.com%7C14d1f96f4afe422a142108d9f5315c32%7C374f80267b544a3ab87d328fa26ec10d%7C0%7C0%7C637810415392632010%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=YVG4NWNJmvM8DTGS76QxVbDuM1OkKXuHYeX%2FdsngmrQ%3D&reserved=0">
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5884686</a> for example is clearly NOT one feature, and (as noted previously) not, or at least not always, marsh.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p>Given all that, duplicate inner polygons is the last problem that I'd worry about here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>All that said, LA is clearly not NJ, and wetland areas on the coast are much more likely to be actual wetland. Also some areas of LA (at random,
<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.openstreetmap.org%2F%23map%3D16%2F29.4707%2F-89.9440&data=04%7C01%7Cosm%40tomtom.com%7C14d1f96f4afe422a142108d9f5315c32%7C374f80267b544a3ab87d328fa26ec10d%7C0%7C0%7C637810415392632010%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=kdx1rPZq9itcolhtdt3h%2BmNb4LghXdpUVmYCfkJajGk%3D&reserved=0">
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/29.4707/-89.9440</a> ) clearly have been tidied up, mostly match the available imagery, and the available imagery sources mostly agree amongst themselves.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Can you publish a list of issues in addition to the count on <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.org%2Fwiki%2FAutomated_edits%2FTTmechanicalupdates%2FFix_issue_with_duplicated_inner_polygons_in_United_States&data=04%7C01%7Cosm%40tomtom.com%7C14d1f96f4afe422a142108d9f5315c32%7C374f80267b544a3ab87d328fa26ec10d%7C0%7C0%7C637810415392632010%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=nYp5NvAFD5M4OXs2Wvse5UjvzkFnNggVhdXN2l6t9YQ%3D&reserved=0">
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_edits/TTmechanicalupdates/Fix_issue_with_duplicated_inner_polygons_in_United_States</a> so that people can assess what you are actually trying to "fix"? That way, people will be able to see whether you'd just be
changing "easily detectable broken data" into "less easily detectable broken data, or actually doing anything worthwhile.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Andy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 21/02/2022 11:10, TomTom OSM wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Hello everyone!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Let us know if you have any more feedback.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If there are no more suggestions from your side, we will happily start the test run in the state of Louisiana as originally planned.
<span class="inline-comment-marker">After this, you’ll be able to take a look at all the changesets and see the outcome of our automated action. We will also keep you updated on the progress of our actions in this thread.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>We are ready to start on Thursday 2/24/2022. Does this timing work for you?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Looking forward to hearing from you.<br>
Marjan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Ladner <a href="mailto:eric.ladner@gmail.com">
<eric.ladner@gmail.com></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 17, 2022 5:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Patrick <a href="mailto:txemt1@gmail.com"><txemt1@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> TomTom OSM <a href="mailto:OSM@tomtom.com"><OSM@tomtom.com></a>; Minh Nguyen
<a href="mailto:minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us"><minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us></a>;
<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Talk-us] [bot] Proposal to fix issue with duplicated inner polygons in the United States<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:black">You don't often get email from <a href="mailto:eric.ladner@gmail.com">
eric.ladner@gmail.com</a>. <a href="http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification">
Learn why this is important</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:white">It's a daunting task to update thousands of miles of coastline, bays, rivers, etc., after a weather event, esp. when the satellite imagery lags by months or years.</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Probably a "best-effort" thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 7:17 PM Eric Patrick <<a href="mailto:txemt1@gmail.com">txemt1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Will these be updated after every hurricane comes through and changes the coastline?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 2:24 PM Eric Ladner <<a href="mailto:eric.ladner@gmail.com" target="_blank">eric.ladner@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Having experience with editing some of the Lousiana coastal areas, it's several failed, incomplete, and possibly overlapping NHD imports with a mess of invalid multi-polygons, unclosed features, and any other error you can think of.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would recommend against turning the bot loose on that geometry until simpler test cases are attempted.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 5:20 AM TomTom OSM <<a href="mailto:OSM@tomtom.com" target="_blank">OSM@tomtom.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Minh,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your kind words, and valuable feedback!<br>
<br>
I passed your suggestions to my team. They will take a closer look at them, and I'll get back with more details in a while.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Marjan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Minh Nguyen <<a href="mailto:minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us" target="_blank">minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us</a>>
<br>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 6:58 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] [bot] Proposal to fix issue with duplicated inner polygons in the United States<br>
<br>
[You don't often get email from <a href="mailto:minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us" target="_blank">
minh@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us</a>. Learn why this is important at <a href="http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification" target="_blank">
http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification</a>.]<br>
<br>
Vào lúc 04:25 2022-02-08, TomTom OSM đã viết:<br>
> We propose to do a test run by updating invalid polygons in the <br>
> Louisiana state, where 5,541 cases are logged by the Osmose rule. Per <br>
> the Automated Edits code of conduct, we will wait for your feedback <br>
> before we begin.<br>
<br>
Hi Marjan, at a glance, it looks like many of the issues involve multipolygons imported from NHD, since Louisiana has a very complex coastline and system of bayous. [1][2] I think many of us would welcome help cleaning up old NHD imports, particularly regarding
topology issues.<br>
<br>
If you later move on to other states, you may need to pay additional attention to occurrences of this warning that don't only involve natural multipolygons. For example, it's possible that a natural feature might be coincident to an enclave of a boundary relation.
I'm unsure if mappers would prefer the boundary relation to be conflated with the natural feature or kept separate from it.<br>
<br>
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