<div dir="auto">Oops, forgot to mention that yes, the CDP should never be boundary=administrative. Use boundary=census. Those don’t show up on most maps but can nonetheless be incorporated by any map/app using the boundary=census data. </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:55 PM Elliott Plack <<a href="mailto:elliott.plack@gmail.com">elliott.plack@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir="auto">Oh man, sorry I’m late to party here. CDPs are one of my favorite topics!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">First, from a DWG perspective (this paragraph only is me wearing the DWG hat), all data produced by the United States Census Bureau is public domain under United States law, and therefore is fully compatible with OpenStreetMap. Now, should you import it as polygons willy-nilly? No. Because most place data is already in the map and so to import it would mean conflating with existing data. You may update existing places with the latest census data, and overwrite boundaries that are there especially if they are from the original 2008 import. I have done this for many of the ones in Maryland. Whether you decide to conflate the boundaries with their roadway or river centerline data, using a multipolygon is up to you. As others have mentioned, these boundaries are not verifiable, and the census uses existing geographic features to delineate places where there is not a legal boundary, so I tend to reuse existing geometry in OSM, rather than create a duplicative feature.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Now, my own perspective is that census designated places most certainly have a place in OpenStreetMap, because of complex rules about what defines a place in the United States. Some jurisdictions do not have any incorporated town boundaries and yet people refer to their area as a town. The CDP becomes the de facto boundary. One could argue that an incorporated town does not have any verifiable boundary either, (in an OSM perspective) as most town boundaries I’ve looked at are not painted on the ground, nor are there signs at every route crossing. While, it’s true that town boundaries may have a legal description, only United States federal documents are automatically public domain so local town incorporation documents may not be and often are not released in a public license. For that matter, what defines a state boundary? The United States has a standard geographic data set for state boundaries, but it can differ from what the states consider their own boundaries to be due to things like projections and surveying discrepancies. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My point is that just because the CDP is not verifiable on the ground it does not mean that it should not be added to the map. Further, I think that all boundaries in OpenStreetMap transcend the rule about verifiability as there are many examples of boundaries between nation states that are not well defined nor are they agreed-upon, and yet we have to come to some semblance of an agreement about where those lines should be on our map. </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 7:39 PM MoiraPrime via Talk-us <<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><u></u>
<div>
<p>I will add my perspective here that in the past I've used TIGER
PLACE data to upgrade boundaries in Mississippi and add missing
ones as well. The original TIGER boundaries in OSM may be
outdated, and they sometimes improve them over time, so carefully
looking and comparing them is important.</p>
<p>So I think if you're looking at a dataset and importing a TIGER
PLACE boundary, and you're doing them one by one as needed, that
would be fine.</p>
<p>To add a specific example, a couple months ago I imported the
TIGER/Line 2020 Place Shapefile for the city of Diamondhead,
Mississippi (<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/110003" target="_blank">Relation:
Diamondhead (110003) | OpenStreetMap</a>). This is a city
that is fairly new. Previously it was simply a Census Designated
Place, but about 10 years ago the people there officially put in
the effort to get it established as a city government, and the
City's boundary did not match what the original CDP boundary was.
In this case it was an improvement to outdated data, and was
personally checked by me and compared to the previous data. <br>
</p></div><div>
<div>On 1/17/2023 10:01 AM, Bill Ricker
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 8:22
AM Aleksandar Matejevic (Hi-Tech Talents LLC) via Talk-us
<<a href="mailto:talk-us@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-us@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have a question regarding TIGER
2022 PLACE dataset (<a href="https://www2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2022/PLACE/" target="_blank">https://www2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2022/PLACE/</a>).<br>
Is it OK with the community to add these polygons to
the OSM? <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">Can
you point to the description of what these PLACE polygons
represent and what meta-data comes with each polygon?</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default"><br>
What are they in OSM terms? Are they Admin boundaries? <br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">(Do
we even consider US Census CDP, Census Designated Place, a
mappable entity?)<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
I saw there were some imports of the previous
datasets in the past years, but lot of polygons are
still missing, </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">Can
you provide (an) example(s) of what's missing from OSM but
in TIGER 2022 PLACE that would be beneficial in OSM?</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and license looks to be
compatible with the OSM one.
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">I
expect so from history, but for the record of the
conversation, it would be good to link and quote it here.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not talking about mass
import of the data, <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">Ok
good , that's a very different discussion.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">but using polygons and adding
them one by one if they are not already added and
improving geometries of the existing ones.<br>
What is the opinion on this effort?</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">Using
individual polygons of compatible license to improve existing
polygons or to start a missing but useful polygon of a sort we
are trying to curate seems (almost*) unobjectionable. <br>
<br>
*Provided that there isn't a better source of compatible
license easily available for the polygon in question.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">(E.g.
if a specialist agency has lakes, forests that are more
refined than Census's, we'd prefer theirs. <br>
US Census studies settlements for purposes of the enumeration
- notoriously did not record One Way direction as Enumerators
walk their blocks in cities - not uninhabited wildlands, so
will likely have fewer points in a polygon that indicates "no
one lives here", while having excellent polygons for "this is
an incorporated place, inhabitant count rolls-up to entity #
NNNNN named YOUR PLACENAME HERE† at level LL" (we use these as
Admin boundaries?) and "this is an unincorporated place and
the census definition is this" (maybe we don't, as there's no
Now Entering CDP imaginary boundary signage?).)<br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">(OTOH
if the better source is not easily available - or will require
a high level negotiation to get a compatible license statement
from their agency management! - starting with the CENSUS
polygon makes sense, even if it's coarser than we'd ideally
prefer.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:georgia,serif" class="gmail_default">†
"<a href="https://youtu.be/96Wtcpje0uE" style="font-family:georgia,serif" target="_blank">Your State's Name Here</a>" - Lou
& Peter Berryman - A Generic Folk-Song praising whatever
state they're visiting and performing in today.<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Sent from iPhone; kindly excuse tyops.</div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Sent from iPhone; kindly excuse tyops.</div>