From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 1 01:47:12 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Converting x,y to latitude,longitude and back In-Reply-To: <200601312356.17153.nick@hogweed.org> References: <200601312356.17153.nick@hogweed.org> Message-ID: <20060201014712.GA5673@asklater.com> * @ 31/01/06 11:56:17 PM nick@hogweed.org wrote: > Hello everyone, > > As part of the new version of Freemap using the slippy map I would like to get > hold of some code which converts between x,y pixel coordinates and lat/long > and vice/versa, where the map is defined by bottom left lat,long, scale and > pixel width/height. > > Does anyone know any good open source code that will do that? Any language > will do, I will convert it to JavaScript. Tried to fathom out what was going > on in the slippy map code but it's hard to locate any code which does the > conversion. the applet, Tile.java has code to get to and from the reference frames. > A related point - what scales (in pixels per lat/lon unit) do the zoom levels > in the slippy map translate to? off the top of my head... at zoom 1 (I think, the lowest level) the world is 512 pixels wide (two tiles). Each zoom doubles that IIRC. So you have that simple degrees / pixel ration from there. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Wed Feb 1 15:23:15 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] (no subject) Message-ID: <20060201152315.64062.qmail@web31801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Wed Feb 1 15:31:30 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] testing on tile server later today Message-ID: <20060201153130.10785.qmail@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm going to be testing a new tile caching scheme on the tile server later today. This will happen transparently in the webserver. I'll send out another mail right before the switch over. I'll be monitoring things closely, but if you notice any problems please email the list. Cheers, Mikel From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 1 17:39:57 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters Message-ID: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> Hi all Since the run of posters sold out I've had lots of requests to buy them. I'd like your ideas on the design of a new one and a selling system. The first poster was a limited run, and signed, so we must do something different. This could be an unlimited run, a bit smaller but glossy, or the same size etc. Would be nice to do a map out to the M25 and other cities or all of Europe. It could incorporate street segments too. The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Wed Feb 1 17:50:12 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters In-Reply-To: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> References: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602010950y7e0c24b6ude6e7ea40b7d2b11@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/06, SteveC wrote: > Hi all > > Since the run of posters sold out I've had lots of requests to buy them. > I'd like your ideas on the design of a new one and a selling system. > > The first poster was a limited run, and signed, so we must do something > different. > > This could be an unlimited run, a bit smaller but glossy, or the same > size etc. Would be nice to do a map out to the M25 and other cities or > all of Europe. It could incorporate street segments too. > How about all different? Get people to choose a bounding box using the tiles interface and then have a "buy poster" button with a choice of sizes and a check boxes for GPS, landsat and street segments? Then generate a poster then and there for that query. > The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on > poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay > store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? > Paypal does shopping carts free doesn't it? Can do sticky labels in evil proprietary software such as MS Word. Really quickly if you have them in a table already. I did a few hundred christmas card labels in about 2 hours including typing from a hand-written address book. Otherwise, at least a basic web-form would save you the job of munging various emails into a table first. If you want to get really industrious, Joel Spolsky's article is worth a quick read: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HowToShipAnything.html Tom. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 1 17:57:55 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters In-Reply-To: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> Message-ID: This will just get bigger and bigger the more data we have to churn out. It could also potentially be a way to raise significant revenue to help the development in the future. I know what its like with snail mail lists. I manage a swimming club membership base of 600 and it's not fun when the yearly mailshot has to go out. The problem of course is that anything scalable is likely to cost money. Perhaps an existing map distributor would be interested if a commission were included? As for the map type... I think it needs to be the size that you can hang up and show off...promoting OSM by doing so. The signed maps were great but you do need rather a lot of wall space for it :) Most maps are not normally glossy so is there any benefit at this stage? I suspect not. As for locations, we know where the most data lies. Get some sample low res png's produced and then vote on the list/wiki which are the most interesting. Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of SteveC >Sent: 01 February 2006 17:40 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters > >Hi all > >Since the run of posters sold out I've had lots of requests to buy them. >I'd like your ideas on the design of a new one and a selling system. > >The first poster was a limited run, and signed, so we must do something >different. > >This could be an unlimited run, a bit smaller but glossy, or the same >size etc. Would be nice to do a map out to the M25 and other cities or >all of Europe. It could incorporate street segments too. > >The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on >poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay >store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? > >have fun, > >SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 1 18:00:36 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602010950y7e0c24b6ude6e7ea40b7d2b11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tom, that was exactly my cool thought too. But then you need a method to turn that bespoke offering into a reliably efficient and timely hard copy. Perhaps a print house might happily take a stream of individual files for printing. Worth investigating though. Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Tom Carden >Sent: 01 February 2006 17:50 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] posters > >On 2/1/06, SteveC wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Since the run of posters sold out I've had lots of requests to buy them. >> I'd like your ideas on the design of a new one and a selling system. >> >> The first poster was a limited run, and signed, so we must do something >> different. >> >> This could be an unlimited run, a bit smaller but glossy, or the same >> size etc. Would be nice to do a map out to the M25 and other cities or >> all of Europe. It could incorporate street segments too. >> > >How about all different? Get people to choose a bounding box using >the tiles interface and then have a "buy poster" button with a choice >of sizes and a check boxes for GPS, landsat and street segments? Then >generate a poster then and there for that query. > >> The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on >> poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay >> store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? >> > >Paypal does shopping carts free doesn't it? > >Can do sticky labels in evil proprietary software such as MS Word. >Really quickly if you have them in a table already. I did a few >hundred christmas card labels in about 2 hours including typing from a >hand-written address book. > >Otherwise, at least a basic web-form would save you the job of munging >various emails into a table first. If you want to get really >industrious, Joel Spolsky's article is worth a quick read: >http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HowToShipAnything.html > >Tom. > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From dan at karran.net Wed Feb 1 18:26:15 2006 From: dan at karran.net (Dan Karran) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters In-Reply-To: References: <16e8cf860602010950y7e0c24b6ude6e7ea40b7d2b11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <37d514850602011026l6553e594q@mail.gmail.com> The likes of Photobox print at a reasonable cost , and I'm pretty sure you can tie into their back end to print bespoke items too. Outsourcing the shipping of the posters surely has to be a good thing, as that could quickly become very time consuming. Regards, Dan -- Dan Karran dan@karran.net www.dankarran.com From f_mohr at yahoo.de Wed Feb 1 21:03:38 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM to eps somehow Message-ID: <43E1222A.3050604@yahoo.de> the poster mail and the promotion wiki article remembered me of a releted question. we are planning a flyer for our local TeX user group with a roadmap to the monthly meeting place. i'd like to use this opportunity to also promote OSM by using OSM data und attributing the map to OSM. any idea how to produce a eps image from the data? the only idea i had so far was download as gpx -> gpx2shp -> import into grass -> export as fig or -> ps.map frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From richard at systemeD.net Wed Feb 1 21:13:19 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM to eps somehow In-Reply-To: <43E1222A.3050604@yahoo.de> References: <43E1222A.3050604@yahoo.de> Message-ID: On 1 Feb 2006, at 21:03, Frank Mohr wrote: > any idea how to produce a eps image from the data? I do GPX -> Illustrator using a short Perl script, and EPS and Illustrator are similar. (Mail me if you want a copy, though currently it's set up for OSGB rather than lat/long.) Richard From stanley12 at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 1 21:14:30 2006 From: stanley12 at blueyonder.co.uk (Rhys Powell) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters In-Reply-To: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> References: <20060201173957.GO5673@asklater.com> Message-ID: <43E124B6.7050306@blueyonder.co.uk> SteveC wrote: > > The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on > poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay > store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? I think the possibility of ruuning a store can be done using oscommerce http://www.oscommerce.com/ and paypal, I did have a look the other week and using paypal to accept credit/debit card payments is much cheaper than a full merchant account. The oscommerce site has lots of live examples but I do know somebody who is actually ruuing it and he highly recommends it. How to manage mailing addresses not sure if oscommerce does that but I can always ask if it does it. Rhys From f_mohr at yahoo.de Wed Feb 1 21:19:14 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM on freegis.org Message-ID: <43E125D2.1030603@yahoo.de> think we should get an entry on freegis.org for OSM if nobody disapproves, i'll fill out the form frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Wed Feb 1 22:57:57 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible Message-ID: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> I haven't done much on OSM for a few weeks. The performance over the December holiday period got so bad that the site was unusable. So bad that I avoided OSM for a whole month. I've seen that there have been some recent changes so tonight I felt motivated to have another go. In about six hours of trying I achieved almost nothing. The speed of the OSM website is terrible. WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP? Etienne From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Wed Feb 1 23:39:30 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Server Performance Message-ID: <8fcd02310602011539l33485266n85edb2ead9288609@mail.gmail.com> Just to quantify this. Panning the applet in edit mode is currently taking 3m 25s. The recent changes to the applet (slippy map etc) have made performance worse. Can someone provide an alternative url to an older version (circa November 2005) of the applet please. Things were much much faster then. Etienne From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 00:29:57 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> * @ 01/02/06 10:57:57 PM openstreetmap-L@gj0.net wrote: > > I haven't done much on OSM for a few weeks. The performance over the > December holiday period got so bad that the site was unusable. So bad > that I avoided OSM for a whole month. I've seen that there have been > some recent changes so tonight I felt motivated to have another go. > > In about six hours of trying I achieved almost nothing. > > The speed of the OSM website is terrible. > > > WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP? It's a fair question, and I'm sorry it hasn't been usable for you and everyone else. I and other people here have been quietly looking at _sustainable_ ways of getting OSM fast and reliable hosting. Let's look at OSM right now. It runs on 5 computers. www, tile, db, backup and dev. All of these machines are hosted at the university I went to and worked at. Past tense. They are for lack of a better word, borrowed. Apart from dev which is Nicks. The hosting is also borrowed and the machines sit in an office being noisy and annoying people. Given that I'm not there any more, questions are starting to arise about these machines. Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. The type of bandwidth we're using is huge. The tile server ships a lot of data around, as does www. Commercial hosting would probably run in to hundreds of pounds a month. As a rough guide then, we need 10 well specced machines. Say 7 to 10 thousand pounds worth of kit and perhaps 3 to 5 thousand pounds of hosting for the first year. We're not, yet, wikipedia and we don't have a sugar daddy to pay for this. I'm guessing we can't just raise that amount from the mailing list. We're persuing multiple routes. We're trying to get a complete snapshot of landsat out of the JPL guys[1] so we're not just their proxy. This make distributing tiles much, much easier. I'm trying to get a formal hosting arrangment with multiple people whereby we can use donated or new hardware. We've also been looking at longer term arrangements in the style that wikipedia and so on are using. I've been making funding applications to various tech, community and art funding bodies in the UK. This all takes time and some politicking (dictionary.com claims that's a real word!), hence my caution from telling you all about it. Please don't think OSM's slowness is ignored at all, but it is starting to get a bit silly. An aside - The Ordnance Survey ------------------------------ As an aside... I want to communicate to you the way geo companies in the UK generally feel about OSM. They tend to love it and want to support it. They're terrified of the Ordnance Survey though. The OS is the sun to which companies, education establishments and charities face. Without the OS, they don't have any data. I'm not an expert. There are people on this list that are. There are people from the OS on the list, too. My experience is that people are _extremely_ reluctant to support anything which would jeopardise their license and relationship with the OS. I'm not sure whether this is a real or perceived threat, but I'd tend to the former. So I, personally, keep running in to people who say something like 'well I would help you, but..' And that's frustrating. It was also surprising to me just how widespread that feeling is, from PhD students to cartographers to massive companies. I don't like to paint the OS as a big evil monster, it's not true or very constructive and I've always found Ed Parsons [2] to be a top bloke. It's just the situation I find OSM, and hence myself, in. I'll write a book about it all one day. Back to the rant ---------------- This is all the traditional OSS way of going. Some non-traditional things for discussion: * Google Ads on the website * CC-non commercial license so we can sell the maps We have a little money from the posters. My efforts so far trying to secure hosting have had limited real world impact so I'm ready to ask all of you what we can do. Perhaps I should have done this in the first place. So, back to the question: > WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP? 1) Hosting for 7-10 machines 2) 7-10 machines We can get together some new and donated equipment with a funding drive. I don't have a good idea how much we could raise? Funding would need to run in to thousands for the higher-end machines (eg, not dev). How much donated equipment do you think we can put together? Hosting. Do you know a webhost or university that will offer us hosting _formally_? They need to have more than one person who'll be responsible for the boxes and they'll probably have to sign some ToS :-( Some bits that can be hosted elsewhere: we can move the wiki to wiki.openstr... and svn to svn.open... if people are able to host these, get in touch. If possible, please get in touch over the mailing list so others can help. Ha, and the mailing list / MX is another thing we can host seperately. [1] http://onearth.jpl.nasa.gov/ [2] http://edparsons.com/ have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 00:32:55 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Server Performance In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602011539l33485266n85edb2ead9288609@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602011539l33485266n85edb2ead9288609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060202003255.GB19489@asklater.com> * @ 01/02/06 11:39:30 PM openstreetmap-L@gj0.net wrote: > Just to quantify this. Panning the applet in edit mode is currently > taking 3m 25s. > > The recent changes to the applet (slippy map etc) have made > performance worse. Can someone provide an alternative url to an older > version (circa November 2005) of the applet please. Things were much > much faster then. Believe it or not.. it's actually faster and the tiles are more reliable, load for load. The problem is we've _approximately_ doubled the number of users since then! http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Osmdbstats1.png have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 01:41:53 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:33 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM to eps somehow In-Reply-To: <43E1222A.3050604@yahoo.de> References: <43E1222A.3050604@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <20060202014153.GI19489@asklater.com> * @ 01/02/06 09:03:38 PM f_mohr@yahoo.de wrote: > the poster mail and the promotion wiki article remembered > me of a releted question. > > we are planning a flyer for our local TeX user group > with a roadmap to the monthly meeting place. > i'd like to use this opportunity to also promote OSM > by using OSM data und attributing the map to OSM. > > any idea how to produce a eps image from the data? > the only idea i had so far was eps export is on my todo, how soon do you need it? have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From noodles at earth.li Thu Feb 2 09:39:10 2006 From: noodles at earth.li (Jonathan McDowell) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:29:57AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > I and other people here have been quietly looking at _sustainable_ ways > of getting OSM fast and reliable hosting. Let's look at OSM right now. > It runs on 5 computers. www, tile, db, backup and dev. All of these > machines are hosted at the university I went to and worked at. Past > tense. > > They are for lack of a better word, borrowed. Apart from dev > which is Nicks. The hosting is also borrowed and the machines sit in an > office being noisy and annoying people. Given that I'm not there any > more, questions are starting to arise about these machines. > > Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. > > The type of bandwidth we're using is huge. The tile server ships a lot > of data around, as does www. Commercial hosting would probably run in > to hundreds of pounds a month. I think you'll have more luck with offers if you can provide hard figures. What spec are the machines currently involved? What bandwidth is currently being shifted to the outside world (ie not between machines)? Are there graphs anywhere publically viewable? J. -- "This sentence no verb." -- Robin | Black Cat Networks Ltd Stevens, ox.talk | http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ | UK Web, domain and email hosting From thomas at walraet.com Thu Feb 2 10:14:22 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> Message-ID: <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> SteveC a ?crit : > > Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. Do you have stats about amount of resources used by people in "edit" mode and in "view" mode ? From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 11:34:35 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> Message-ID: <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 09:39:10 AM noodles@earth.li wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:29:57AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > I and other people here have been quietly looking at _sustainable_ ways > > of getting OSM fast and reliable hosting. Let's look at OSM right now. > > It runs on 5 computers. www, tile, db, backup and dev. All of these > > machines are hosted at the university I went to and worked at. Past > > tense. > > > > They are for lack of a better word, borrowed. Apart from dev > > which is Nicks. The hosting is also borrowed and the machines sit in an > > office being noisy and annoying people. Given that I'm not there any > > more, questions are starting to arise about these machines. > > > > Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > > fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > > machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > > because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. > > > > The type of bandwidth we're using is huge. The tile server ships a lot > > of data around, as does www. Commercial hosting would probably run in > > to hundreds of pounds a month. > > I think you'll have more luck with offers if you can provide hard > figures. tile does about 50 Gb a month, from looking at it's logs. www is harder to estimate but it'd be similar. That's what they're doing today, it's increasing with time and I'd guess that if it suddenly becomes more usable then usage will also go up. > What spec are the machines currently involved? http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Feeds#Server_Load And none of these machines are OSM's > What bandwidth is currently being shifted to the outside world (ie not > between machines)? Are there graphs anywhere publically viewable? http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/munin/ But it doesn't give good bandwidth indications. Memory utilisation is there, they're all underspecced. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 11:38:42 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> Message-ID: <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 10:14:22 AM thomas@walraet.com wrote: > SteveC a ?crit : > > > >Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > >fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > >machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > >because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. > > Do you have stats about amount of resources used by people in "edit" > mode and in "view" mode ? per-session stats arn't recorded but as a rough guide tile saw 52,000 hits yesterday from 320 different ip addresses. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 11:46:01 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <64828.83.92.37.10.1138864342.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <64828.83.92.37.10.1138864342.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> Message-ID: <20060202114601.GC26495@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 07:12:22 AM preben@chin.dk wrote: > > Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > > fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > > machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > > because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. > > > > The type of bandwidth we're using is huge. The tile server ships a lot > > of data around, as does www. Commercial hosting would probably run in > > to hundreds of pounds a month. > > Just a question: Did you analyse in which step the most > bandwidth/processing power/waiting time is being used? For example, if the > landsat image fetching is the slowest part, could the editing be speed up The applet doesn't rely on landsat, but I see yout point. Mikel will know a bit more about this than me. If you accept that whatever the implementation, OSM is a high bandwidth and processing proposition then the current bottleneck is memory. All the machiness are swapping (apart from dev) due to low memory. Why don't I put more memory in the computers? They're not my computers. :-) www runs more that one website and also has many modules there, like php, svn etc that it needn't for just running OSM. There are many things that need analysis (please dig in!), I think it was imi that pointed out how slow REXML was for example. > by disabling this? How many hits for individual map locations are there > currently? See other emails :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 11:56:43 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: Request for hardware In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602020034sb58fad6y5e7411acc8c368a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602020034sb58fad6y5e7411acc8c368a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060202115643.GD26495@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 08:34:57 AM someone wrote: > Steve > Why don't you publish your ideal hardware spec and a delivery address. > If you publish the info then maybe others who are in a position to > help will be able to do something as well. Address privately :-) www: Two machines, 2Gb or more. Gigabit cards if possible, 80Gb IDE/SATA hardrive's are probably fine. Might use one as an exclusive api box. tile: 4Gb, 2 - 4 500Gb IDE (SCSI pref.) drives, as fast as possible db: 4Gb [1], SCSI RAID of less than 100Gb is fine, as fast as possible. Donated machines with low memory etc are probably fine if we can raise funds to upgrade them. As long as they arn't rambus. [1] http://www.danga.com/memcached/ have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From crschmidt at crschmidt.net Thu Feb 2 12:24:24 2006 From: crschmidt at crschmidt.net (Christopher Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 11:34:35AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > * @ 02/02/06 09:39:10 AM noodles@earth.li wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:29:57AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > > I and other people here have been quietly looking at _sustainable_ ways > > > of getting OSM fast and reliable hosting. Let's look at OSM right now. > > > It runs on 5 computers. www, tile, db, backup and dev. All of these > > > machines are hosted at the university I went to and worked at. Past > > > tense. > > > > > > They are for lack of a better word, borrowed. Apart from dev > > > which is Nicks. The hosting is also borrowed and the machines sit in an > > > office being noisy and annoying people. Given that I'm not there any > > > more, questions are starting to arise about these machines. > > > > > > Even at 5 OK-spec machines with excellent JANET hosting, it's not that > > > fast. So we probably need another 3-5 excellent machines. And these > > > machies, for the most part, need to be physically close to each other > > > because of the interplay of the database, tile creation and the applet. > > > > > > The type of bandwidth we're using is huge. The tile server ships a lot > > > of data around, as does www. Commercial hosting would probably run in > > > to hundreds of pounds a month. > > > > I think you'll have more luck with offers if you can provide hard > > figures. > > tile does about 50 Gb a month, from looking at it's logs. www is harder > to estimate but it'd be similar. That's what they're doing today, it's > increasing with time and I'd guess that if it suddenly becomes more > usable then usage will also go up. 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated server with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's with a dedicated server inluded, so presumably at least as good for colo. In my experience, bandwidth in Europe and the UK seems to be more expensive. I know that OSM is a mostly UK project, but maybe a US based host could provide more bang for the buck, even with slightly higher ping times or whatever. I'm not sure that bandwidth is the issue here, of course, but if "50GB" is a lot in the current setup, I think the current setup might not be optimal. (Correct me if my assumptions are wrong here.) Is there any way to get OSM set up as a non-profit organization for tax purposes? I'd be happy to donate some money in the near future towards a new equipment drive, but would like it even more if I could write it down as a tax deduction. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 2 12:28:54 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> Message-ID: <20060202122854.GE26495@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 12:24:24 PM crschmidt@crschmidt.net wrote: > 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be /me nods but multiply that per machine and the stats graphs. > bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated server > with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's with a dedicated > server inluded, so presumably at least as good for colo. I'd thought about that, but figured donated equipment at a university was going to be easier. > In my experience, bandwidth in Europe and the UK seems to be more > expensive. I know that OSM is a mostly UK project, but maybe a US based > host could provide more bang for the buck, even with slightly higher > ping times or whatever. I'm not sure that bandwidth is the issue here, > of course, but if "50GB" is a lot in the current setup, I think the > current setup might not be optimal. That 50Gb is all (well, a lot) on the fly generated images, not static content. Hence the load doesn't look like a static machine. > Is there any way to get OSM set up as a non-profit organization for tax > purposes? I'd be happy to donate some money in the near future towards a > new equipment drive, but would like it even more if I could write it > down as a tax deduction. I'm working on it :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From crschmidt at crschmidt.net Thu Feb 2 12:47:18 2006 From: crschmidt at crschmidt.net (Christopher Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202122854.GE26495@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> <20060202122854.GE26495@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060202124718.GC17649@crschmidt.net> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:28:54PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > * @ 02/02/06 12:24:24 PM crschmidt@crschmidt.net wrote: > > 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be > > /me nods > > but multiply that per machine and the stats graphs. Even still, I'm currently dealing with 500GB/month in traffic - much of it bittorrent, so I'm nowhere near informative with OSM's model, I get that - and my hosts don't bug me. > > bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated server > > with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's with a dedicated > > server inluded, so presumably at least as good for colo. > > I'd thought about that, but figured donated equipment at a university > was going to be easier. I think that it may be time to move OSM into a next stage. Especially given the OS's attitude towards mapping projects, as you described in a previous email, I think that looking to the people who may depend on them - universities - to host things for free is risky. I can't imagine, for example, wikipedia being hosted by a University. I know Google was to start with, but they had to move out eventually, and with the number of contributors OSM has, maybe this is a sign that it's time. In other words, in my opinion, it may be time to take this effort, look for some funding from various sources to cover recurring monthly costs, and make the leap into a 'real' space with service level agreements and so on. Taking the server down to do maint is something that is becoming increasingly more troublesome as OSM gets a constant string of edits -- any time the server is down is time these things can't be updated. 6 months from now, moving the machines again when they outgrow another university's goodwill, will be even more trouble than it might be now. OSM has significant needs beyond a level that can be accomodated without thought. These needs may be best met by someplace that is willing to sign a contract to maintain a level of service, something that very few people offering 'free' hosting will be willing to do. Then again, I'm mostly an observer, so I may be wrong. But I'd love to support OSM in this way if I can. > > In my experience, bandwidth in Europe and the UK seems to be more > > expensive. I know that OSM is a mostly UK project, but maybe a US based > > host could provide more bang for the buck, even with slightly higher > > ping times or whatever. I'm not sure that bandwidth is the issue here, > > of course, but if "50GB" is a lot in the current setup, I think the > > current setup might not be optimal. > > That 50Gb is all (well, a lot) on the fly generated images, not static > content. Hence the load doesn't look like a static machine. Load is definitely something I understand -- I don't question that the hardware you mention is needed, but assuming all the machines are in the same rackspace, the amount of processing is irrelevant to the actual bandwidth. In other words, bandwidth should be a target number that can be met irrelevant of the hardware that's running behind the switch, unless I'm misunderstanding. > > Is there any way to get OSM set up as a non-profit organization for tax > > purposes? I'd be happy to donate some money in the near future towards a > > new equipment drive, but would like it even more if I could write it > > down as a tax deduction. > > I'm working on it :-) Cool. I'd love to see OSM do a pledge drive. Decide what hardware is needed to make a workable system of machines, then create a wikipedia-like pledge drive. Given the attitude of "we'd love to help, but we can't", perhaps a monetary donation would be a more fitting request from users of the OS data. (Anonymous to the greatest extent allowable by law...) -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer From noodles at earth.li Thu Feb 2 12:56:49 2006 From: noodles at earth.li (Jonathan McDowell) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <20060202093910.GJ28731@earth.li> <20060202113435.GA26495@asklater.com> <20060202122424.GB17649@crschmidt.net> Message-ID: <20060202125649.GV28731@earth.li> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 07:24:24AM -0500, Christopher Schmidt wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 11:34:35AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > tile does about 50 Gb a month, from looking at it's logs. www is > > harder to estimate but it'd be similar. That's what they're doing > > today, it's increasing with time and I'd guess that if it suddenly > > becomes more usable then usage will also go up. > > 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be > bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated > server with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's > with a dedicated server inluded, so presumably at least as good for > colo. 50GB/month isn't that much in the UK either. However the sorts of places that have cheap bandwidth don't tend to have cheap space, so finding room for 5+ machines that presumably aren't even rackmount gets harder. J. -- /------------------------------------\ | You!... Off my planet! | | http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ | \------------------------------------/ From jo at frot.org Thu Feb 2 13:27:35 2006 From: jo at frot.org (Jo Walsh) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060202132735.GG20954@vishnu.tridity.org> dear Steve, i really enjoyed your aside-rant, it made a lot of sense to me. Thankyou. On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:29:57AM +0000, SteveC wrote: [ lots about how OSM needs to find new hosting resources ] > Some bits that can be hosted elsewhere: we can move the wiki to > wiki.openstr... and svn to svn.open... if people are able to host these, > get in touch. Recently Swapnil has been doing a lot of work playing around with mediawiki setup on http://freemap.in/ . As this is a service that doesn't need to be tied into the main hosting situation i would feel pretty happy about offering to take on the wiki onto the freemap system. (good bandwidth, decent spec, debian amd64, in west coast US, we can't move it / donate it outright; just to clarify; been here before). I would definitely want to be able to offer you a service level agreement of some kind; a guarantee about backup arrangements for the wiki db. I know we've been putting off a Governance Discussion, or at least a rules clarification, about this system, that it would probably make sense for us to have now. ('we' here is http://wiki.freemap.in/moin.cgi/WhoAreWe ) We can take the svn repos too but the core of the freemap system is application services, and not code distribution. Whatever makes the most sense for you in the light of other offers... i would like to get SVK on there and use the kforge.net code for managing data / metadata so it could actually work out to be a good fit. As in the followup thread, a rough idea of the traffic impact would be really helpful). -jo From dave at earth.li Thu Feb 2 20:41:26 2006 From: dave at earth.li (David Sheldon) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Server Performance Message-ID: <20060202204126.GQ6295@ox.compsoc.net> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:32:55AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > Believe it or not.. it's actually faster and the tiles are more > reliable, load for load. I was thinking about another possible speed improvement over the last few days. Does the apache server use mod_ruby to run the api code, or does it start up a new process for every request? If so, this could probably make a big difference. After that we can start thinking about using prepared statements for the sql queries to reduce the DB load there too. David -- "The good thing about Unix is that it's very easy to create a child on the fly to tell you things like that (although it's not quite as much fun as in real life)." - Malcolm Beattie (linux-kernel) From topro at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 09:10:25 2006 From: topro at gmx.de (topro@gmx.de) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible References: <20060202124718.GC17649@crschmidt.net> Message-ID: <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> Hi there, what Do you think of a distributed architecture for OSM. Let anyone who is willing to support OSM run a bittorrent-style server for OSM. Servers are syncing p2p and anyone who accesses OSM gets redirected to a server around the world, i.e. randomly or in a more dedicated way. If only 5% of the users would be willing to do so server load would be reduced to a value that can be handled by any hardware and bandwidth. And OSM power/bandwidth would grow with it's users. Just an idea, what do you think. Tobi > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: Christopher Schmidt > An: SteveC > Kopie: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > Betreff: Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is > terrible > Datum: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:47:18 -0500 > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:28:54PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > * @ 02/02/06 12:24:24 PM crschmidt@crschmidt.net wrote: > > > 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be > > > > /me nods > > > > but multiply that per machine and the stats graphs. > > Even still, I'm currently dealing with 500GB/month in traffic - much of > it bittorrent, so I'm nowhere near informative with OSM's model, I get > that - and my hosts don't bug me. > > > > > bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated > server > > > with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's with a > dedicated > > > server inluded, so presumably at least as good for colo. > > > > I'd thought about that, but figured donated equipment at a university > > was going to be easier. > > I think that it may be time to move OSM into a next stage. Especially > given the OS's attitude towards mapping projects, as you described in a > previous email, I think that looking to the people who may depend on > them - universities - to host things for free is risky. I can't imagine, > for example, wikipedia being hosted by a University. I know Google was > to start with, but they had to move out eventually, and with the number > of contributors OSM has, maybe this is a sign that it's time. > > In other words, in my opinion, it may be time to take this effort, look > for some funding from various sources to cover recurring monthly costs, > and make the leap into a 'real' space with service level agreements and > so on. Taking the server down to do maint is something that is becoming > increasingly more troublesome as OSM gets a constant string of edits -- > any time the server is down is time these things can't be updated. 6 > months from now, moving the machines again when they outgrow another > university's goodwill, will be even more trouble than it might be now. > > OSM has significant needs beyond a level that can be accomodated without > thought. These needs may be best met by someplace that is willing to > sign a contract to maintain a level of service, something that very few > people offering 'free' hosting will be willing to do. > > Then again, I'm mostly an observer, so I may be wrong. But I'd love to > support OSM in this way if I can. > > > > In my experience, bandwidth in Europe and the UK seems to be more > > > expensive. I know that OSM is a mostly UK project, but maybe a US > based > > > host could provide more bang for the buck, even with slightly higher > > > ping times or whatever. I'm not sure that bandwidth is the issue here, > > > of course, but if "50GB" is a lot in the current setup, I think the > > > current setup might not be optimal. > > > > That 50Gb is all (well, a lot) on the fly generated images, not static > > content. Hence the load doesn't look like a static machine. > > Load is definitely something I understand -- I don't question that the > hardware you mention is needed, but assuming all the machines are in the > same rackspace, the amount of processing is irrelevant to the actual > bandwidth. > > In other words, bandwidth should be a target number that can be met > irrelevant of the hardware that's running behind the switch, unless I'm > misunderstanding. > > > > Is there any way to get OSM set up as a non-profit organization for > tax > > > purposes? I'd be happy to donate some money in the near future towards > a > > > new equipment drive, but would like it even more if I could write it > > > down as a tax deduction. > > > > I'm working on it :-) > > Cool. > > I'd love to see OSM do a pledge drive. Decide what hardware is needed to > make a workable system of machines, then create a wikipedia-like pledge > drive. Given the attitude of "we'd love to help, but we can't", perhaps > a monetary donation would be a more fitting request from users of the OS > data. (Anonymous to the greatest extent allowable by law...) > > -- > Christopher Schmidt > Web Developer > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > -- DSL-Aktion wegen gro?er Nachfrage bis 28.2.2006 verl?ngert: GMX DSL-Flatrate 1 Jahr kostenlos* http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From preben at chin.dk Fri Feb 3 09:26:09 2006 From: preben at chin.dk (Preben Mikael Bohn) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> References: <20060202124718.GC17649@crschmidt.net> <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> Message-ID: <55389.193.163.1.105.1138958769.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> > what Do you think of a distributed architecture for OSM. Let anyone who > is willing to support OSM run a bittorrent-style server for OSM. > Servers are syncing p2p and anyone who accesses OSM gets redirected to a > server around the world, i.e. randomly or in a more dedicated way. > > If only 5% of the users would be willing to do so server load would be > reduced to a value that can be handled by any hardware and bandwidth. And > OSM power/bandwidth would grow with it's users. Personnally I think this is a great idea. I don't know if bittorent is to complex (I think it should stay as simple as possible) so another approach is to delegate different geographical regions to different servers (which could also be placed physically close to the region it serves in order to minimise network latency). This has the advantage that the space requirement is also minimised (although there should be a central backup somewhere). However if a bittorent solution is easy to maintain/install/etc, then this would probably be easier to administer on a high level (delegation of processing/space/etc)... I would be happy to host the danish region. :-) Best regards Preben From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 09:35:58 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Distributed servers for osm In-Reply-To: <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> References: <20060202124718.GC17649@crschmidt.net> <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> Message-ID: <17599.80.246.32.40.1138959358.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > what Do you think of a distributed architecture for OSM. Let anyone who > is willing to support OSM run a bittorrent-style server for OSM. > Servers are syncing p2p and anyone who accesses OSM gets redirected to a > server around the world, i.e. randomly or in a more dedicated way. I think the requests are very local. Requests from IP's within the UK will almost anytime request UK-data. This makes simple caches strategies of the data very powerfull. So I suggest not destroying this advantage by randomize access requests. Better build a cache-server specialized for osm requests (or tile-requests). Another thing: Do not fix performance without profiling. Statistically, "improvements" without prior profiling worse performance. Ciao, Imi. From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Fri Feb 3 09:52:28 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <15928.1138957825@www069.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20060203095228.22367.qmail@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is actually being discussed, for handling loads on WMS tile servers generally http://mappinghacks.com/projects/distributed-wms-cache.txt ----- Original Message ---- From: topro@gmx.de To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:10:25 AM Subject: Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible Hi there, what Do you think of a distributed architecture for OSM. Let anyone who is willing to support OSM run a bittorrent-style server for OSM. Servers are syncing p2p and anyone who accesses OSM gets redirected to a server around the world, i.e. randomly or in a more dedicated way. If only 5% of the users would be willing to do so server load would be reduced to a value that can be handled by any hardware and bandwidth. And OSM power/bandwidth would grow with it's users. Just an idea, what do you think. Tobi > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: Christopher Schmidt > An: SteveC > Kopie: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > Betreff: Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is > terrible > Datum: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:47:18 -0500 > > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:28:54PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > * @ 02/02/06 12:24:24 PM crschmidt@crschmidt.net wrote: > > > 50GB a month is very little in the US: That type of bandwidth can be > > > > /me nods > > > > but multiply that per machine and the stats graphs. > > Even still, I'm currently dealing with 500GB/month in traffic - much of > it bittorrent, so I'm nowhere near informative with OSM's model, I get > that - and my hosts don't bug me. > > > > > bought for cheap. I'm currently paying $100/month for a dedicated > server > > > with 1000GB/month bandwidth, just for comparison, and that's with a > dedicated > > > server inluded, so presumably at least as good for colo. > > > > I'd thought about that, but figured donated equipment at a university > > was going to be easier. > > I think that it may be time to move OSM into a next stage. Especially > given the OS's attitude towards mapping projects, as you described in a > previous email, I think that looking to the people who may depend on > them - universities - to host things for free is risky. I can't imagine, > for example, wikipedia being hosted by a University. I know Google was > to start with, but they had to move out eventually, and with the number > of contributors OSM has, maybe this is a sign that it's time. > > In other words, in my opinion, it may be time to take this effort, look > for some funding from various sources to cover recurring monthly costs, > and make the leap into a 'real' space with service level agreements and > so on. Taking the server down to do maint is something that is becoming > increasingly more troublesome as OSM gets a constant string of edits -- > any time the server is down is time these things can't be updated. 6 > months from now, moving the machines again when they outgrow another > university's goodwill, will be even more trouble than it might be now. > > OSM has significant needs beyond a level that can be accomodated without > thought. These needs may be best met by someplace that is willing to > sign a contract to maintain a level of service, something that very few > people offering 'free' hosting will be willing to do. > > Then again, I'm mostly an observer, so I may be wrong. But I'd love to > support OSM in this way if I can. > > > > In my experience, bandwidth in Europe and the UK seems to be more > > > expensive. I know that OSM is a mostly UK project, but maybe a US > based > > > host could provide more bang for the buck, even with slightly higher > > > ping times or whatever. I'm not sure that bandwidth is the issue here, > > > of course, but if "50GB" is a lot in the current setup, I think the > > > current setup might not be optimal. > > > > That 50Gb is all (well, a lot) on the fly generated images, not static > > content. Hence the load doesn't look like a static machine. > > Load is definitely something I understand -- I don't question that the > hardware you mention is needed, but assuming all the machines are in the > same rackspace, the amount of processing is irrelevant to the actual > bandwidth. > > In other words, bandwidth should be a target number that can be met > irrelevant of the hardware that's running behind the switch, unless I'm > misunderstanding. > > > > Is there any way to get OSM set up as a non-profit organization for > tax > > > purposes? I'd be happy to donate some money in the near future towards > a > > > new equipment drive, but would like it even more if I could write it > > > down as a tax deduction. > > > > I'm working on it :-) > > Cool. > > I'd love to see OSM do a pledge drive. Decide what hardware is needed to > make a workable system of machines, then create a wikipedia-like pledge > drive. Given the attitude of "we'd love to help, but we can't", perhaps > a monetary donation would be a more fitting request from users of the OS > data. (Anonymous to the greatest extent allowable by law...) > > -- > Christopher Schmidt > Web Developer > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > -- DSL-Aktion wegen gro?er Nachfrage bis 28.2.2006 verl?ngert: GMX DSL-Flatrate 1 Jahr kostenlos* http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl _______________________________________________ Openstreetmap mailing list Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 3 10:06:07 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] RE: OSM's future. In-Reply-To: <20060203095228.22367.qmail@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One thing we must not loose track of is the scalability. OSM is growing relatively slowly at the moment, but if you look at the trend with time then the average of 5000 line segments added each day right now will be perhaps 50,000 per day by the end of this year alone. I think we can reasonably expect a minimum ten fold increase in the potential overall use of the system by the end of this year and very likely to be significantly higher as new capability comes on line. Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk From topro at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 10:35:04 2006 From: topro at gmx.de (topro@gmx.de) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible References: <55389.193.163.1.105.1138958769.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> Message-ID: <30799.1138962904@www026.gmx.net> I don't like the idea of servers serving dedicated regions because that would make it hard for the system to grow in the future. It would work as a short term soloution, maybe. but i don't think it is a good approach for the nearby future because if a new server is added it has to take away some parts to serve from other users. I would prefer to split server load by session, not by region. Tobi > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: "Preben Mikael Bohn" > An: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > Betreff: Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance > is terrible > Datum: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:26:09 +0100 (CET) > > > what Do you think of a distributed architecture for OSM. Let anyone who > > is willing to support OSM run a bittorrent-style server for OSM. > > Servers are syncing p2p and anyone who accesses OSM gets redirected to a > > server around the world, i.e. randomly or in a more dedicated way. > > > > If only 5% of the users would be willing to do so server load would be > > reduced to a value that can be handled by any hardware and bandwidth. > And > > OSM power/bandwidth would grow with it's users. > > Personnally I think this is a great idea. I don't know if bittorent is to > complex (I think it should stay as simple as possible) so another approach > is to delegate different geographical regions to different servers (which > could also be placed physically close to the region it serves in order to > minimise network latency). This has the advantage that the space > requirement is also minimised (although there should be a central backup > somewhere). > > However if a bittorent solution is easy to maintain/install/etc, then this > would probably be easier to administer on a high level (delegation of > processing/space/etc)... > > I would be happy to host the danish region. :-) > > Best regards Preben > > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > -- Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From preben at chin.dk Fri Feb 3 11:08:25 2006 From: preben at chin.dk (Preben Mikael Bohn) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. Was: Re: [Openstreetmap] OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <30799.1138962904@www026.gmx.net> References: <55389.193.163.1.105.1138958769.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> <30799.1138962904@www026.gmx.net> Message-ID: <19857.193.163.1.105.1138964905.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> > I don't like the idea of servers serving dedicated regions because that > would make it hard for the system to grow in the future. It would work as > a short term soloution, maybe. but i don't think it is a good approach > for the nearby future because if a new server is added it has to take > away some parts to serve from other users. I would prefer to split server > load by session, not by region. The problem is that if you have to split it by session you need to have the entire database on each of the servers. I would for example not mind having the database for Denmark on my server, however I _would_ mind having to have 1TB (or whatever it takes to have images, GPS data, roads, etc) of data for the entire world. If the project had the resources to have a bunch of high-quality, high-bandwidth, 100TB machines running all the time then obviously this would be the best approach; however it is my understanding that this is not the case (for now at least). Just my two euros... :-) Best regards Preben From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 11:23:51 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. In-Reply-To: <19857.193.163.1.105.1138964905.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> References: <55389.193.163.1.105.1138958769.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> <30799.1138962904@www026.gmx.net> <19857.193.163.1.105.1138964905.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> Message-ID: <52240.80.246.32.40.1138965831.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > The problem is that if you have to split it by session you need to have > the entire database on each of the servers. I would for example not mind > having the database for Denmark on my server, however I _would_ mind > having to have 1TB (or whatever it takes to have images, GPS data, roads, > etc) of data for the entire world. I think, what he means is, that you can host all requests for denmark, but do not "own" denmark. You have to get your data from a central server (hosting the world) and are obligated to transfer changes the user made to the server (or maybe forward all changing requests at all). This way, Denmark can be accessed very quickly, without server bandwith used but without the need to host the whole world on every local server. Think caches, not servers. ;-) (This reminds me of DNS.. Someone already tried to setup a dns cache for WMS tiles? *g*) Ciao, Imi. From preben at chin.dk Fri Feb 3 11:46:28 2006 From: preben at chin.dk (Preben Mikael Bohn) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. In-Reply-To: <52240.80.246.32.40.1138965831.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <55389.193.163.1.105.1138958769.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> <30799.1138962904@www026.gmx.net> <19857.193.163.1.105.1138964905.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> <52240.80.246.32.40.1138965831.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <26063.193.163.1.105.1138967188.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> > I think, what he means is, that you can host all requests for denmark, but > do not "own" denmark. You have to get your data from a central server > (hosting the world) and are obligated to transfer changes the user made to > the server (or maybe forward all changing requests at all). OK, in that case it makes sense; still the main server needs to make available all the data to the "distribution servers" on "new" requests; I don't know the details of the BW usage, hits, etc, but is that scenario scalable for the main server? > This way, Denmark can be accessed very quickly, without server bandwith > used but without the need to host the whole world on every local server. > > Think caches, not servers. ;-) Great idea. The other problem is of course the implementation... :) I don't know the OSM implementation details, is this a feasible way to do it? Best regards Preben From topro at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 13:47:35 2006 From: topro at gmx.de (topro@gmx.de) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. References: <52240.80.246.32.40.1138965831.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <18043.1138974455@www092.gmx.net> yes, you are right. sounds good to me that way. Tobi > --- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht --- > Von: "Immanuel Scholz" > An: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > Betreff: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. > Datum: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:23:51 +0100 (CET) > > Hi, > > > The problem is that if you have to split it by session you need to have > > the entire database on each of the servers. I would for example not mind > > having the database for Denmark on my server, however I _would_ mind > > having to have 1TB (or whatever it takes to have images, GPS data, > roads, > > etc) of data for the entire world. > > I think, what he means is, that you can host all requests for denmark, but > do not "own" denmark. You have to get your data from a central server > (hosting the world) and are obligated to transfer changes the user made to > the server (or maybe forward all changing requests at all). > > This way, Denmark can be accessed very quickly, without server bandwith > used but without the need to host the whole world on every local server. > > Think caches, not servers. ;-) > > > (This reminds me of DNS.. Someone already tried to setup a dns cache for > WMS tiles? *g*) > > Ciao, Imi. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > -- Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko! Satte Provisionen f?r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner From pere at hungry.com Fri Feb 3 14:18:26 2006 From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: OSM Performance is terrible References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> Message-ID: <2flslr07cgd.fsf@saruman.uio.no> [Steve Coast] > Hosting. Do you know a webhost or university that will offer us > hosting _formally_? They need to have more than one person who'll be > responsible for the boxes and they'll probably have to sign some ToS > :-( I believe the University of Oslo, where I work, might be able to offer hosting. We are talking about rack-space in an air-conditioned environment with redundant power supply and unlimited 100 mb/s ethernet connection to the Internet. The most relevant agreement would be the "power and net" type, were the university provide power, rackspace and network connection, and someone else take care of all the administration of the machines. I had a chat with one of the people in charge (assistant director of the computer center), and he saw no problem with hosting OSM, but wanted an email with more info to be able to make a decision. Is this interesting? I already have one machine we can use (I previously tried to set it up as the development machine), but I do not believe it is powerful enough to have a serious impact. So someone need to provide rack-mountable machines. From simon at rumble.net Fri Feb 3 14:24:11 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: OSM Performance is terrible In-Reply-To: <2flslr07cgd.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Message-ID: On 3/2/2006, "Petter Reinholdtsen" wrote: >Is this interesting? I already have one machine we can use (I >previously tried to set it up as the development machine), but I do >not believe it is powerful enough to have a serious impact. So >someone need to provide rack-mountable machines. Wow, that's a pretty damn fine offer! I'm sure we could raise funds for at least one rack-mount machine. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Fri Feb 3 14:53:33 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas Message-ID: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, while we are speaking of distributed servers, what about having servers for specific types of objects only? As example, someone could want to host a server with only tracks with the tag "class=river" or "class=coast" and areas with "class=sea", "class=ocean" etc... making this server an repository for landscape information. Applications that specialize on landscape issues (freemap?) could use this server for faster access to these objects. What my point is: In the future, there will be some needs of types of objects not related to an Open"Street"Map, and it may be good, if we have cache servers, that can handle faster access for applications, that are really not interested in some kind of data types (e.g. landscape stuff). The alternative is to force this people to use a completly different server or a completly different system, although both user groups have a common basis of data types (maybe both server would want to deliver objects with the tag "pub=BEER" ;) There are already discussions about object classes that should or should not be included in OSM for various reasons. Ciao, Imi. From thomas at walraet.com Fri Feb 3 15:05:41 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <43E37145.7020105@walraet.com> Immanuel Scholz a ?crit : > > As example, someone could want to host a server with only tracks with the > tag "class=river" or "class=coast" and areas with "class=sea", > "class=ocean" etc... making this server an repository for landscape > information. Applications that specialize on landscape issues (freemap?) > could use this server for faster access to these objects. I was wondering the same thing for tags... One of the things I'd like to do with the Paris map is to tag roads with roller-skating stuff (surface quality for road and sidewalk, sidewalk width, ...) If everybody add tags on OSM for purpose that specific, it's going to be a huge mess :) I think that such usage should be handle by another project (and server) that use OSM data. We could also put everything on OSM and define tag classes to request data with only some kind of data. From richard at systemeD.net Fri Feb 3 15:19:45 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> Before we go down the road of a complex distributed architecture, it's worth thinking "is OSM running at 100% efficiency already?". Pretty clearly it's not. Steve posted just a fortnight ago that he'd like to replace mapserver with something faster (http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/pipermail/openstreetmap/2006-January/002088.html). This really needs to be a priority. As part of this, I'd suggest that we optimise heavily for delivery. In other words: how can we precalculate certain data to avoid the server having to crunch through the same old functions, time after time? One example is to 'pre-project' data - in other words, rather than having to do the Mercator calculations on lat/longs every single time, do the calculation when the data is first loaded, and store the result in extra database fields. Another is to store simplified segment paths. When you're fully zoomed in, sure, show the full-point version. But when you're viewing a small scale map, you actually only need a handful of points to generate the same line. Again, this could either be done when the data is loaded/edited, or by means of a cron job. Further in the future, a really good way to reduce server load is to use client-side rendering technologies like SVG and Flash (for those who have them, of course, not as the only option). Apologies for being not as specific as I might like - I've only just started playing with the source in the last few days. cheers Richard From sxpert at esitcom.org Fri Feb 3 15:26:04 2006 From: sxpert at esitcom.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl_Jacquot?=) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. Was: Re: OSM Performance is terrible] Message-ID: <43E3760C.3000305@esitcom.org> Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > [Steve Coast] > >>Hosting. Do you know a webhost or university that will offer us >>hosting _formally_? They need to have more than one person who'll be >>responsible for the boxes and they'll probably have to sign some ToS >>:-( > > > I believe the University of Oslo, where I work, might be able to offer > hosting. We are talking about rack-space in an air-conditioned > environment with redundant power supply and unlimited 100 mb/s > ethernet connection to the Internet. > > The most relevant agreement would be the "power and net" type, were > the university provide power, rackspace and network connection, and > someone else take care of all the administration of the machines. > > I had a chat with one of the people in charge (assistant director of > the computer center), and he saw no problem with hosting OSM, but > wanted an email with more info to be able to make a decision. > > Is this interesting? I already have one machine we can use (I > previously tried to set it up as the development machine), but I do > not believe it is powerful enough to have a serious impact. So > someone need to provide rack-mountable machines. I could also arrange for this. the research network we're on (renater) has a "no commercial use" policy in which OSM would fit rather well :D From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Fri Feb 3 16:03:42 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: Fw: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas Message-ID: >Hi, >while we are speaking of distributed servers, what about having servers >for specific types of objects only? >As example, someone could want to host a server with only tracks with the >tag "class=river" or "class=coast" and areas with "class=sea", >"class=ocean" etc... making this server an repository for landscape >information. Applications that specialize on landscape issues (freemap?) >could use this server for faster access to these objects. As developer of Freemap I would like to agree with this idea if it were feasible. Freemap isn't too interested in the nuances of road travel and only *really* needs to display certain types of road i.e. primary, secondary, motorway, country lane and the larger roads in cities. If there was a countryside-orientated server then it would make Freemap's access to the data faster. In a related point, the direction I am moving Freemap towards is a walking-orientated wiki/AJAX application, where walkers (and other users of the countryside) can add, edit and delete information such as path blockages, interesting views, etc, and also add photographs. These would be accompanied by quite detailed explanations (maybe a paragraph). Again, it might seem more appropriate to store this info on the countryside-orientated server rather than the main OSM server. Nick http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From erjohan at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 16:16:50 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Another is to store simplified segment paths. When you're fully zoomed > in, sure, > show the full-point version. But when you're viewing a small scale map, you > actually only need a handful of points to generate the same line. Again, this > could either be done when the data is loaded/edited, or by means of a > cron job. I tried GPSbabel feature to simplify tracks, and you could simplify the tracks enormously. But when would you do this simplification? Every time you edit a point you would have to redo the simplification for that region. see the wiki http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/MakingGpxTracks#Simplifying_tracks > > Further in the future, a really good way to reduce server load is to use > client-side rendering technologies like SVG and Flash (for those who > have them, > of course, not as the only option). With textpath support in Firefox(beta), SVG is really an option. You already have SVG in firefox 1.5. -- /Erik From richard at systemeD.net Fri Feb 3 16:31:10 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Erik Johansson : > I tried GPSbabel feature to simplify tracks, and you could simplify > the tracks enormously. But when would you do this simplification? > Every time you edit a point you would have to redo the simplification > for that region. You could run it on a cron job, coupled with some form of versioning. In other words, edited segments are simplified at (say) 6.00 every morning. The simplified path expires when it's edited, and the unsimplified version is then used, for that path only, until 6am the next day. If you've got a good enough algorithm (like the one in Illustrator) and a client capable of rendering beziers (again, Flash or SVG), you can simplify a path into beziers. This is amazingly efficient - 90%+ savings aren't uncommon. Richard From simon at rumble.net Fri Feb 3 16:41:03 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Saratlas: free database of French and Swiss autoroutes Message-ID: I just discovered this mapping site for French and Swiss motorways. Quite impressively detailed -- these guys are real anoraks (geeks, enthusiast for the non-Brits) for their roads. http://saratlas.free.fr/index.php?page=edito&lang=en I can't find any information about licensing, but if it's under a free license, would make a valuable inclusion in OSM. I'm happy to make contact in a week's time -- I'm actually off to France this afternoon -- but someone might want to remind me. From f_mohr at yahoo.de Fri Feb 3 17:29:05 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (frank mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Saratlas: free database of French and Swiss autoroutes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060203172905.55349.qmail@web25709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --- Rev Simon Rumble wrote: > I can't find any information about licensing under the menu on the left: ? SARA. All reproductions are prohibited. Administrators : - J.R. LEGALLAIS - V. THOMAS and The consultation is free. The information is brought by some road and motorway enthusiasts. Please feel free to put any comments on our forum. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From simon at zymurgy.org Fri Feb 3 22:22:26 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <43E3D7A2.70307@zymurgy.org> Erik Johansson wrote: > On 2/3/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> Another is to store simplified segment paths. When you're fully zoomed >> in, sure, >> show the full-point version. But when you're viewing a small scale map, you >> actually only need a handful of points to generate the same line. Again, this >> could either be done when the data is loaded/edited, or by means of a >> cron job. > Look at how others to this: At large scales, only motorways are shown, zoom in a bit and you get dual carriageways and then primary roads, then zoom in more, and you get secondary roads. Zoom further you get minor roads and residential streets. Zoom right in and you can see back alleys and paths. So, in order to achieve this, we'd need the API to support selecting only a subset of segment class names within a bounding area, and a mapserver that knows about this. While you're at it, you can make the mapserver render the classes differently. It would also make the large scale maps look far nicer than just a big white blob. -- Simon Hewison From lars at aronsson.se Sat Feb 4 02:53:27 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> Message-ID: SteveC wrote: > > Do you have stats about amount of resources used by people in "edit" > > mode and in "view" mode ? > > per-session stats arn't recorded but as a rough guide tile saw 52,000 > hits yesterday from 320 different ip addresses. What kind of information can you get out of the tile Squid? Does it report the cache/hit ratio, and the min/avg/max processing time for the cached and non-cached requests? My impression is that cached tile requests are served really fast, and I guess these numbers would hint at extending the cache expire time from 48 hours to 14 days or more. Can we think of a way to invalidate (the right part of) the tile cache when a map is edited? Re your earlier posting, I agree that OSM can need those 7-10 servers within a year or so. Right now 2-3 servers (new ones) of OSM's own (not borrowed) could be more reasonable. If people are going to send money, they need some kind of organization or foundation to send it to. But this organizational/hosting/funding question should be kept separate from current runtime performance problems, since the latter has much more to do with the software. If we use slow XML libraries instead of fast ones, there will be no end to how much hardware we are going to need. Right now OSM is a bit slow and this keeps willing contributors away. I want to recruit more people, but I really cannot show them this slow server. As soon as the system gets faster, we will get more users that will consume the speedup. In order not to become depressed by the constantly slow server, we should keep stats on how many users and map views we serve, as these numbers should steadily increase. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From lars at aronsson.se Sat Feb 4 03:01:31 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Call for Participation : Wikimania 2006, the annual Wikimedia Conference (fwd) Message-ID: The following just in from Samuel J. Klein, Wikipedia [[user:Sj]]. I think this conference ought to feature an OSM presentation. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:31:05 -0500 From: SJ <2.718281828@gmail.com> Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Dear all, I am happy to announce that submissions are currently being accepted for the second annual Wikimedia Conference. The primary deadline for submitting an abstract is April 15, 2006. The conference will be held from August 4-6, 2006 in Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA, on the Harvard Law School campus. http://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Call_for_papers <-- full text of the CfP http://cfp.wikimania.wikimedia.org/ <-- where to submit abstracts If you have an idea for speakers, tutorials, or panels, please add them to the list: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Program_ideas === Please translate this notice and distribute it widely. === Looking forward to an amazing conference, SJ From erjohan at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 16:06:13 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Quoting Erik Johansson : > If you've got a good enough algorithm (like the one in Illustrator) and > a client > capable of rendering beziers (again, Flash or SVG), you can simplify a > path into > beziers. This is amazingly efficient - 90%+ savings aren't uncommon. I have been looking around for reduction schemes, but all I can find is polyline reduction -- /Erik From erjohan at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 16:17:14 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Quoting Erik Johansson : > If you've got a good enough algorithm (like the one in Illustrator) and > a client > capable of rendering beziers (again, Flash or SVG), you can simplify a > path into > beziers. This is amazingly efficient - 90%+ savings aren't uncommon. Ups sorry didn't mean to send that first mail. We want to reduce a graph not just a polyline, simple line reduction can be found at: http://geometryalgorithms.com/Archive/algorithm_0205/ But I have been thinking can you reduce it by doing this: 1. Transform all nodes in the bbox to x/y of the current tile 2. pick a (random/or someother way) point 3. simplify all nodes that are in a 3x3 square around this point to a new node 5. connect all the old segments that linked to the deleted nodes to this node. 6. go to 2 This would work for the first zoomlevels. -- /Erik PS. I'm not much for Beziers, but that's just because I grew sick of them in my Numerical Methods course. From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 4 20:12:54 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] the disappearing landsat and speedups Message-ID: <20060204201254.GA23973@asklater.com> onearth, the JPL provided landsat imagery has dropped off the net and so openstreetmap doesn't currently look great. various speedups have gone live * tile creation uses Magick instead of Cairo so it doesn't have to save the tile to disk and then spit it out. Also, projection calculations are re-used. munin says this takes less memory and creation looks quicker * tiles that are too big or cover too large a section of the planet just return a blank (transparent) streets or gpx layer rather than kill the database * load statements have been replaced with require so mod_ruby doesn't re-read libraries on every hit have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 4 20:19:53 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> * @ 04/02/06 02:53:27 AM lars@aronsson.se wrote: > SteveC wrote: > > > Do you have stats about amount of resources used by people in "edit" > > > mode and in "view" mode ? > > > > per-session stats arn't recorded but as a rough guide tile saw 52,000 > > hits yesterday from 320 different ip addresses. > > What kind of information can you get out of the tile Squid? Does > it report the cache/hit ratio, and the min/avg/max processing time > for the cached and non-cached requests? My impression is that ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_MISS access.log.1 | wc 17220 172200 2514777 ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_HIT access.log.1 | wc 15518 155180 2060270 ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_MEM_HIT access.log.1 | wc 4567 45670 623279 > cached tile requests are served really fast, and I guess these > numbers would hint at extending the cache expire time from 48 > hours to 14 days or more. Can we think of a way to invalidate > (the right part of) the tile cache when a map is edited? Mikel is looking at such things... > Re your earlier posting, I agree that OSM can need those 7-10 > servers within a year or so. Right now 2-3 servers (new ones) of > OSM's own (not borrowed) could be more reasonable. If people are > going to send money, they need some kind of organization or > foundation to send it to. I'll update when I have more concrete things to say, but I'm talking to more people about hosting etc thanks to this thread. > But this organizational/hosting/funding question should be kept > separate from current runtime performance problems, since the > latter has much more to do with the software. If we use slow XML > libraries instead of fast ones, there will be no end to how much > hardware we are going to need. I don't think it has much to do with the S/W actually. All the machines are swapping, and there's very little I can think of to reduce the memory overhead that I haven't done already. The database machine only has 300 Meg ffs. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 4 20:24:47 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] more distributed ideas In-Reply-To: <43E3D7A2.70307@zymurgy.org> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> <43E3D7A2.70307@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: <20060204202447.GC23973@asklater.com> * @ 03/02/06 10:22:26 PM simon@zymurgy.org wrote: > Look at how others to this: > > At large scales, only motorways are shown, zoom in a bit and you get > dual carriageways and then primary roads, then zoom in more, and you get > secondary roads. Zoom further you get minor roads and residential > streets. Zoom right in and you can see back alleys and paths. Yup, but the others are pre-generated tiles. Which is totally fine, but then we need to buy lots of disk drives. > So, in order to achieve this, we'd need the API to support selecting > only a subset of segment class names within a bounding area, and a > mapserver that knows about this. While you're at it, you can make the > mapserver render the classes differently. There's another way to do this. Space Syntax would let us magically find different classifications of streets but AFAIK needs the streets API to be there first. Coming soon! have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 4 20:25:30 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Server Performance In-Reply-To: <20060202204126.GQ6295@ox.compsoc.net> References: <20060202204126.GQ6295@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <20060204202529.GD23973@asklater.com> * @ 02/02/06 08:41:26 PM dave@earth.li wrote: > On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:32:55AM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > Believe it or not.. it's actually faster and the tiles are more > > reliable, load for load. > > I was thinking about another possible speed improvement over the last > few days. Does the apache server use mod_ruby to run the api code, or > does it start up a new process for every request? If so, this could > probably make a big difference. After that we can start thinking about > using prepared statements for the sql queries to reduce the DB load > there too. mod_ruby :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From lars at aronsson.se Sat Feb 4 22:39:11 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: SteveC wrote: > * @ 04/02/06 02:53:27 AM lars@aronsson.se wrote: > > What kind of information can you get out of the tile Squid? Does > > it report the cache/hit ratio, and the min/avg/max processing time > > for the cached and non-cached requests? My impression is that > > ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_MISS access.log.1 | wc > 17220 172200 2514777 > ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_HIT access.log.1 | wc > 15518 155180 2060270 > ll:/var/log/squid# grep TCP_MEM_HIT access.log.1 | wc > 4567 45670 623279 I did a simple "time wget" shell command for a single tile URL, which apparently is cached by now, and over 24 samples in the last 48 hours (one sample every 2 hours) I got response times ranging from 0.13 to 0.26 seconds, with an average of 0.14 seconds. (Yes, this is the elapsed wallclock time, not my local CPU cycles.) This is excellent, even before you consider that 0.03 seconds of that is the ping roundtrip for Link?ping-Stockholm-Amsterdam-London. Our problem is not the cache hits, but the misses. Does Squid record the response times for the misses? That would be a useful tool for optimizing the application. 15518+4567 hits to 17220 misses, or a 53 % hit ratio, isn't very great for a cache. The ratio should increase if tiles didn't expire after 48 hours. Do we have the disk to cache more tiles? Most tiles of the map do not change every 48 hours, or even every 48 days. And when they change, 48 hours is too long anyway. I want to see my new drawn maps immediately, so I tend to right-click-view-image and manually reload the individual tiles that need to be updated. Perhaps we should just tell map editors to do this, and then set the cache never to expire? -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From erjohan at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 00:14:22 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: On 2/4/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > > Does Squid record the response times for the misses? That would > be a useful tool for optimizing the application. Yes, the second field in squid access.log is the time in ms it took to complete the request. If we make the script understand "if-modified-since", and only update tiles when they change. This check takes about 0.8s for squid to do on my local machine. -- /Erik From garaolaza at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 08:34:42 2006 From: garaolaza at gmail.com (Gari Araolaza) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: Hi, Some propositions to temporarily help improving performance from the users side (yes, temporary solutions). Sorry if any of them sounds stupid, I'm just trying to help in some way, just brainstorming: - Giving free access to web server's access stats (webalizer like), so that we can choose the right time/day to come by editing. It's sunday morning ( 8:00-9:00 CET) and I've noticed a improved performance while editing this morning. I assume most of you are sleeping. :-) - Restricting the Zoom levels, so that tiles don't have to be created for any zoom level, but just for 4, 5 or whatever levels. We should have an indicator of the actual zoom level too, so that we know if we're at 3, 7 or at 14 level. Sometimes I'm just zooming to go to a given area, and I notice that the tile server is working for every click I do on the + and - buttons. - Sometimes, working with GPS tracks, we don't need the tiles at all, so, why not to have an option to deactivate them? It would be very useful now, as the Landsat data is not working and we get a white tile that hides the yellow GPS tracks (given to low contrast). At that point, it would be interesting too if we could click somewhere to get a single tile for that area. - I will prepare a bookmarklet so that we can go editing to a given point from Google Maps. I mean: zooming and panning to a given point just to start editing is a pain with the actual tile server performance. So, I will go to Google Maps, zoom and select the point I'm going to start editing, and then click on the bookmarklet that will send me directly to edit that area in OSM, let's say, at a 14 zoom level. Gari From steve at asklater.com Sun Feb 5 11:08:25 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: OSM's future. [Openstreetmap] In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060205110825.GA1084@asklater.com> * @ 05/02/06 08:34:42 AM garaolaza@gmail.com wrote: > - Giving free access to web server's access stats (webalizer like), so > that we can choose the right time/day to come by editing. It's sunday > morning ( 8:00-9:00 CET) and I've noticed a improved performance while > editing this morning. I assume most of you are sleeping. :-) The stats page has this > - I will prepare a bookmarklet so that we can go editing to a given > point from Google Maps. I mean: zooming and panning to a given point > just to start editing is a pain with the actual tile server > performance. So, I will go to Google Maps, zoom and select the point > I'm going to start editing, and then click on the bookmarklet that > will send me directly to edit that area in OSM, let's say, at a 14 > zoom level. *big copyright warning alarm bell goes off* There would be a large temptation to base your map editing off of google maps then. This is not the solution, and we can't risk it. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From waban_star at yahoo.com Sun Feb 5 19:33:30 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Download link Message-ID: <20060205193330.87966.qmail@web36611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I need to download JOSM edit and similar, can any one supply these? Due to the amount of data I need to edit online is not working, the other interfaces looked more promising. Suggestion would be to have these links available on the Wiki, the one link I was able to discern as available time out repeatedly. Thanks, Waban* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From erjohan at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 20:45:35 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Download link In-Reply-To: <20060205193330.87966.qmail@web36611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060205193330.87966.qmail@web36611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/5/06, wabanstar wrote: > I need to download JOSM edit and similar, can any one > supply these? Due to the amount of data I need to > edit online is not working, the other interfaces > looked more promising. Suggestion would be to have > these links available on the Wiki, the one link I was > able to discern as available time out repeatedly. > Thanks, I've added the download link to: http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/JOSM -- /Erik From frank at hebbert.com Sun Feb 5 21:31:49 2006 From: frank at hebbert.com (Frank Hebbert) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] bookmarklets / gazatteer In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> <20060204201953.GB23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060205213148.GA4572@kiko.local> Gari Araolaza, Sun, Feb 05, 2006: > - I will prepare a bookmarklet so that we can go editing to a given > point from Google Maps. ... > So, I will go to Google Maps, zoom and select the point > I'm going to start editing, and then click on the bookmarklet that > will send me directly to edit that area in OSM, let's say, at a 14 > zoom level. See http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/User:Frankh#OSM_bookmarklet for a version of this idea, using Multimap. SteveC, Sun, Feb 05, 2006: > There would be a large temptation to base your map editing off of google maps then. This is not the solution, and we can't risk it. I don't think the bookmarklet idea encourages copyright infringement, though I understand what you mean (if someone really wanted to copy it would be trivial to set up two browser windows side by side to do it). Bookmarklets make finding a location easier but since they are entirely at the user end of things as a browser bookmark, there's no need for OSM to make this a "feature". Could the search box on the front page search the road names that have been attributed? That would handy, a live gazatteer that would reduce the need for external solutions like bookmarklets. Frank From dave at earth.li Sun Feb 5 21:52:15 2006 From: dave at earth.li (David Sheldon) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] the disappearing landsat and speedups In-Reply-To: <20060204201254.GA23973@asklater.com> References: <20060204201254.GA23973@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060205215215.GV6295@ox.compsoc.net> On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 08:12:54PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > * tile creation uses Magick instead of Cairo so it doesn't have to save > the tile to disk and then spit it out. Also, projection calculations > are re-used. munin says this takes less memory and creation looks > quicker This appears to have made the white lines narrower (a width of 0 rather than 1 in the code). I prefered the old look, as the new one looks like the roads are not so solid. See the difference in http://www.earth.li/~dave/images/differentLines.jpeg where some of the tiles were generated with the old code, and some with the new code. > * tiles that are too big or cover too large a section of the planet just > return a blank (transparent) streets or gpx layer rather than kill the > database This is a bit of a pain. I've been using a direct URL to generate summary map of Oxford (so that I have a record of how we're doing). http://www.earth.li/~dave/images/osm/oxfordMap-20060205.jpeg I guess I need to write some code to request the 12 tiles that make it up and join them together again in order to recreate this. Oh, and the gpx points appear to have changed from diamonds to crosses. This is actually quite nice, but was it intentional? Overall, these are good changes, and when the map server comes back, we will see how much faster it all is. David -- Wouldn't you love to fill out that report? "Company asset #423423 was lost while fighting the forces of evil." -- Chris Adams in the scary.devil.monastery From steve at asklater.com Sun Feb 5 23:20:53 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] the disappearing landsat and speedups In-Reply-To: <20060205215215.GV6295@ox.compsoc.net> References: <20060204201254.GA23973@asklater.com> <20060205215215.GV6295@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <20060205232053.GB7408@asklater.com> * @ 05/02/06 09:52:15 PM dave@earth.li wrote: > On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 08:12:54PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > * tile creation uses Magick instead of Cairo so it doesn't have to save > > the tile to disk and then spit it out. Also, projection calculations > > are re-used. munin says this takes less memory and creation looks > > quicker > > This appears to have made the white lines narrower (a width of 0 rather > than 1 in the code). I prefered the old look, as the new one looks like > the roads are not so solid. yup, easy to fix but am waiting for landsat > Oh, and the gpx points appear to have changed from diamonds to crosses. > This is actually quite nice, but was it intentional? accident but then figured it looked ok have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From waban_star at yahoo.com Sun Feb 5 23:31:32 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Editing online Message-ID: <20060205233132.42112.qmail@web36607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've tried editing online and have come to two conclusions. points don't represent the majority of usefull information that my track contained when displayed in other applications, and more immediately of importance is the default distance which is too far out for my purposes. Related to distance is the next click in is either way too close and/or the map data can't redraw for me to see it for the purpose of drawing. I would suggest the drag rectangle which would let me decide the appropriate viewing distance. I don't need a Sat. background (good for mostly background texture at current res.) for drawing on points, in the US I could digitize from TerraServer or USGS imagery (copywrite problems?) which is clearer and more accurate. PS: I found the download site, so thanks anyway. Waban* --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060205/1136bb98/attachment.htm From lars at aronsson.se Sun Feb 5 23:40:53 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] the disappearing landsat and speedups In-Reply-To: <20060205232053.GB7408@asklater.com> References: <20060204201254.GA23973@asklater.com> <20060205215215.GV6295@ox.compsoc.net> <20060205232053.GB7408@asklater.com> Message-ID: SteveC wrote: > > Oh, and the gpx points appear to have changed from diamonds to > > crosses. This is actually quite nice, but was it intentional? > > accident but then figured it looked ok When the satellite images are missing, the new greenish-yellow crosses are almost invisible against the white background. The old orange-yellow dots were better. But right now (23.30 UTC Sunday) I get no dots or crosses at all, just the white background. I don't mind a white or grey background, but I really like to see my tracks when I edit the map. Temperatures were -10 to -20 Celsius south of Link?ping today, roads are dry and safe and all the dirt is frozen, so my car was clean when I returned home, an hour ago. This trip is my first into the new [[WikiProject Sm?land]], http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/WikiProject_Sm%C3%A5land -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Mon Feb 6 08:24:31 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] graph reduction (was: more distributed ideas) In-Reply-To: References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <13333.80.246.32.40.1139214271.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > But I have been thinking can you reduce it by doing this: > 1. Transform all nodes in the bbox to x/y of the current tile > 2. pick a (random/or someother way) point > 3. simplify all nodes that are in a 3x3 square around this point to a new > node > 5. connect all the old segments that linked to the deleted nodes to this > node. > 6. go to 2 This means, all nodes and all line segments in the given area need to be processed. If the assumption is true, that bottleneck for delivering street information is the CPU power (or I/O capabilities) of the server and not the bandwidth, this is currently contra-productive. If objects are tagged after importness, the amount of data to be processed (and transfered) can be reduced at SQL level. Maybe your algorithm can be used to auto-tag the whole dataset to get a quick start. Ciao, Imi. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Mon Feb 6 08:37:32 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Download link In-Reply-To: <20060205193330.87966.qmail@web36611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060205193330.87966.qmail@web36611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3913.80.246.32.40.1139215052.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> > I need to download JOSM edit and similar, can any one > supply these? Due to the amount of data I need to > edit online is not working, the other interfaces > looked more promising. Suggestion would be to have > these links available on the Wiki, the one link I was > able to discern as available time out repeatedly. latest build (usually pretty stable) http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm-latest.jar latest release (currently 1.0): http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm.jar Ciao, Imi. From pere at hungry.com Mon Feb 6 09:05:44 2006 From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM's future. References: <8fcd02310602011457q2edf0ef6v4d5b120ddebf6e31@mail.gmail.com> <20060202002956.GA19489@asklater.com> <43E1DB7E.6040408@walraet.com> <20060202113842.GB26495@asklater.com> Message-ID: <2fl7j88kgbb.fsf@saruman.uio.no> [Lars Aronsson] > If people are going to send money, they need some kind of > organization or foundation to send it to. Yes, that would be nice. We can either create our own, or reuse an existing one. I believe we will save us a lot of paperwork if we can use an existing one. I have good working relations with two foundations here in Norway, The NUUG Foundation[1] and SLX Debian Labs[2], and suspect both can be willing to act as collecting points for this project. I also suspect Software in the Public Interest[3] and the new Open Source Geospatial Foundation[4] might be good fit for us. 1 2 3 4 From sxpert at esitcom.org Mon Feb 6 12:51:43 2006 From: sxpert at esitcom.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl_Jacquot?=) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] graph reduction In-Reply-To: <13333.80.246.32.40.1139214271.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <33106.80.246.32.40.1138978413.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <20060203151945.j8nd341i8kookwwg@webmail.systemed.net> <20060203163110.1iwa7880000gcccg@webmail.systemed.net> <13333.80.246.32.40.1139214271.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <43E7465F.6020507@esitcom.org> Immanuel Scholz wrote: > This means, all nodes and all line segments in the given area need to be > processed. > > If the assumption is true, that bottleneck for delivering street > information is the CPU power (or I/O capabilities) of the server and not > the bandwidth, this is currently contra-productive. > > If objects are tagged after importness, the amount of data to be processed > (and transfered) can be reduced at SQL level. a couple tricks than can be used * do some of the things (like adding points/lines) as stored procedures instead of scripting multiple queries in a transaction from the web server * using a 64bit machine with tons of ram (so that the db ends up in the buffer segments in ram) * the above in turns needs a good UPS with a connection to the box to turn it off property at a moment's notice, and fairly often syncs * furthermore, for this kind of application, the AMD 64 bit processors are better as they cut 1/2 the ram access latency that the comparable intels have (which in turns makes the app 2x faster) From lists at stockill.net Mon Feb 6 16:09:44 2006 From: lists at stockill.net (Jon Stockill) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] posters Message-ID: <43E774C8.8000105@stockill.net> Rhys Powell wrote: > SteveC wrote: > >> >> The other thing is the system. Totally swamped writing addresses on >> poster tubes from emails. Need sticky labels and some system like ebay >> store or http://www.etsy.com/. Any ideas? > > I think the possibility of ruuning a store can be done using oscommerce > http://www.oscommerce.com/ > and paypal, I did have a look the other week and using paypal to accept > credit/debit card payments is much cheaper than a full merchant account. > > The oscommerce site has lots of live examples but I do know somebody who > is actually ruuing it and he highly recommends it. > > How to manage mailing addresses not sure if oscommerce does that but I > can always ask if it does it. I work here See http://shop.fotopic.net for a list of products (in particular http://shop.fotopic.net/pg1.html has the posters). They're glossy posters, come out of a photographic lab, and look really nice. You can sell any of those products from a fotopic gallery - all you have to do is sign up for a gallery and upload the images - payment and shipping is handled for you. Steve - if you set up one of the free accounts (here: http://www.fotopic.net and drop me the details I'll get it upgraded to a premium account - you can set all your own pricing on the products then. -- Jon Stockill lists@stockill.net From waban_star at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 17:00:10 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Download link Message-ID: <20060206170010.23585.qmail@web36615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The other problem is that all the links to the Editors sites and software all are timing out before I can download. Waban* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lars at aronsson.se Mon Feb 6 22:43:24 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots Message-ID: Hooray, the satellite background images are back! And the response time is very good this afternoon. Sadly, the roads are only rarely drawn and quite randomly. And when they are drawn, they are of the new narrow and ugly kind. In the edit applet, white backgrounds and roads are displayed, and quite fast at that, but no satellite background images (never mind) and worst of all: no dots! What's up? Can I help? -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From Jens.Kammann at dlr.de Mon Feb 6 22:51:42 2006 From: Jens.Kammann at dlr.de (Jens.Kammann@dlr.de) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM Peformance is terrible Message-ID: <8E2223CA43658B4FB6C4F2425AAF80D30106AB80@exbe04.intra.dlr.de> Hi, JPL's onearth seems to be up again, but OSM still doesn't work: In the view modes tiles show up, but no streets (hopefully they are not deleted...) In the Edit mode, only some of the streets show up together with white tiles without the yellow markers. In one sentence, the service not useable - both for users and contributors. I am in the administration team of a PC cluster used for (mainly scientific) simulations at the DLR (German Aerospcae Center). We have some 50 PCs (using Debian Linux) sitting most of the time idle connected via 155 MBit/s to the DFN/Internet. So if OSM can be partioned in some ways (e.g. by splitting the map serving from the map editing), I would be glad to help out. We also have some spare SUN netra T1s (also with Debian Linux) which could serve as caches (both for tiles and map data). It would be pitty if motivated map contributors get scared away just because of discontenting server performance! Regards, Jens -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060206/df594c79/attachment.html From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Mon Feb 6 23:10:09 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM Peformance is terrible In-Reply-To: <8E2223CA43658B4FB6C4F2425AAF80D30106AB80@exbe04.intra.dlr.de> References: <8E2223CA43658B4FB6C4F2425AAF80D30106AB80@exbe04.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602061510p63fefeb1vcc61275e0b8f66b3@mail.gmail.com> Jens, Lars, others, Steve said recently that he was waiting for onearth to come back online before fixing a bunch of things. Please be patient. You can see from Trac's timeline (www.openstreetmap.org/trac/timeline) that OSM is getting frequent updates at the moment from both Steve and Mikel. Things are sometimes slow, and things are up and down, but your data is (pretty) safe and we're grateful to hear all the options for funding/hosting - keep them coming! But a little patience, please! It's 11pm on a Monday night... hardly crunch time for unpaid bug-fixing. Phone a friend, or take a walk, or read a book. OSM will be back soon :) Best, Tom. On 2/6/06, Jens.Kammann@dlr.de wrote: > > Hi, > > JPL's onearth seems to be up again, but OSM still doesn't work: > > In the view modes tiles show up, but no streets (hopefully they are not > deleted...) In the Edit mode, only some of the streets show up together with > white tiles without the yellow markers. > In one sentence, the service not useable - both for users and contributors. > > I am in the administration team of a PC cluster used for (mainly scientific) > simulations at the DLR (German Aerospcae Center). We have some 50 PCs (using > Debian Linux) sitting most of the time idle connected via 155 MBit/s to the > DFN/Internet. So if OSM can be partioned in some ways (e.g. by splitting the > map serving from the map editing), I would be glad to help out. We also have > some spare SUN netra T1s (also with Debian Linux) which could serve as > caches (both for tiles and map data). > > It would be pitty if motivated map contributors get scared away just because > of discontenting server performance! > > Regards, > Jens > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > > > From steve at asklater.com Mon Feb 6 23:58:29 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> * @ 06/02/06 10:43:24 PM lars@aronsson.se wrote: > Hooray, the satellite background images are back! And the > response time is very good this afternoon. Sadly, the roads are > only rarely drawn and quite randomly. And when they are drawn, > they are of the new narrow and ugly kind. > > In the edit applet, white backgrounds and roads are displayed, and > quite fast at that, but no satellite background images (never > mind) and worst of all: no dots! Quick reality check: OSM has 1200 users, approximately one programmer, approximately no money and approximately one computer lent by free-map.org.uk. Under these circumstances I think we're doing better than could be expected, but as we all know there is a long way to go and we can do a lot better. Most of our problems stem from our massive increase in users which is really a *good* thing. As I said I'm getting hosting and an organisation together but it takes time, please be patient, I'll have news soon. > What's up? Mikel set up some things before the oneearth went down and a bug came to light when it came back. > Can I help? Our data contributor / programmer ratio is not great so if something breaks 1200 people can't do any work but only one (ish) person can fix it. Until I have some concrete things to say (soon!), ask ten of your best programmer friends to fix a bug in OSM. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Tue Feb 7 00:08:56 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: OSM Peformance is terrible In-Reply-To: <8E2223CA43658B4FB6C4F2425AAF80D30106AB80@exbe04.intra.dlr.de> References: <8E2223CA43658B4FB6C4F2425AAF80D30106AB80@exbe04.intra.dlr.de> Message-ID: <20060207000856.GD26843@asklater.com> * @ 06/02/06 10:51:42 PM Jens.Kammann@dlr.de wrote: > I am in the administration team of a PC cluster used for (mainly > scientific) simulations at the DLR (German Aerospcae Center). We have > some 50 PCs (using Debian Linux) sitting most of the time idle connected > via 155 MBit/s to the DFN/Internet. So if OSM can be partioned in some > ways (e.g. by splitting the map serving from the map editing), I would > be glad to help out. We also have some spare SUN netra T1s (also with > Debian Linux) which could serve as caches (both for tiles and map data). We need stable dedicated hosting, so for example if OSM went away because your cluster had to run a CFD on the latest jet engine you're designing then everyone would be upset like they are now. Hosting is very welcome, thank you for the offer. If it's dedicated and we can get a service agreement together then we can move forward. I've had off-list hosting offers I'm talking to people about but it doesn't happen in 4 or 5 days. > It would be pitty if motivated map contributors get scared away just > because of discontenting server performance! It *is* a pity, and I'm trying to make it not happen because all this is stopping me working on features. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From f_mohr at yahoo.de Tue Feb 7 00:37:26 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E7EBC6.60609@yahoo.de> Lars Aronsson wrote: > In the edit applet, white backgrounds and roads are displayed, and > quite fast at that, but no satellite background images (never > mind) and worst of all: no dots! the "no satellite background images" gets me to a question that came up this weekend when i uploaded the A661 east of Frankfurt. i found there some sketchy autobahn access/exit lines that where all shifted according to my tracks (based on 10 tracks in each direction) when i compared it to the sat images at zoom level 15 in the editor this evening, it seems they where drawn based on the sat images as a comparison i've uploaded an image which shows the distance http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Image:TrackSatDist.png Orange is the old database content probably based on the sat image, Brown is the recorded track of the same traffic circle (went there on my way back home this evening, the track on the A661 matched the already uploaded carriage way), the arrow shows the distance of 35m (according to gpsman) just to start a discussion: shouldn't the display of landsat background images be turned off in scales that enlarge the sat image over it's original size (i assume level 13 or 14) - as an advantage that would make the display faster, while there are less tiles to cache - as an disadvantage, that would also turn off the display of sat images in the java applet frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 7 01:28:11 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: <43E7EBC6.60609@yahoo.de> References: <43E7EBC6.60609@yahoo.de> Message-ID: Frank Mohr wrote: > shouldn't the display of landsat background images be turned off > in scales that enlarge the sat image over it's original size > (i assume level 13 or 14) I think the satellite image background should be shown in all zoom levels of the viewer, but not at all in the edit applet. By the way, this afternoon when the viewer showed satellite background images without drawing any roads, I really liked the response time. Perhaps roads shouldn't be drawn at all in zoom levels 1-9, only in levels 10-15? In these deeper levels, the database SELECT will only turn up a limited amount of dots and line segments. I think this would be an acceptable trade-off until we have sufficient hardware resources. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 7 02:09:14 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> References: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> Message-ID: SteveC wrote: > Quick reality check: OSM has 1200 users, approximately one > programmer, approximately no money and approximately one > computer lent by free-map.org.uk. > > Under these circumstances I think we're doing better than could > be expected, but as we all know there is a long way to go and we > can do a lot better. Most of our problems stem from our massive > increase in users which is really a *good* thing. > > As I said I'm getting hosting and an organisation together but > it takes time, please be patient, I'll have news soon. Steve, at age 39 and being a coordinator and sole programmer of several Internet projects in the last 15 years, I think I have a pretty good grasp on reality. I think you have way too much on your own to-do list, and you should encourage more people to get involved instead of trying to cover everything on your own. Me and Petter would be glad to help with the organization, which is a thing you cannot successfully run on your own, anyway. I have no experience from founding and running orgazations in Britain, but the way we do it in Sweden, Norway, and Germany, we can set up bylaws, appoint a preliminary board and hold a founding meeting in a week's time. After this you can open bank accounts and receive donations and membership fees. For Germany, if you want to become an "e.V." registered association, it takes slightly more time. Tax-exemption could take even longer, but we don't have that option in Sweden. I'm starting to think that Isle of Wight could be a good time for a founding meeting. But there still is no date set for this excursion. Another idea could be a get-together around CeBIT in Hanover in March. I would suggest you as chief technologist and Tom Carden as chairman. Petter could be treasurer and I could volunteer as secretary, if there are no other suggestions. I would suggest an annual membership fee of 50 UKP = 75 EUR = 550 DKK = 600 NOK = 700 SEK. You would have 20-30 members in a flick, and enough fees to purchase the first server of OSM's own. That is a kind of organization that I could send donations to and recruit more members to. But right now I have no idea what kind you are coming up with or "working on". So I'm held in suspense, trying to keep my expectations as low as I can, never to be disappointed. As Petter said, piggy-backing on an existing organization could cut the overhead even further. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 7 02:14:11 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] tracklog photos Message-ID: A friend of mine was able to take photos of live tracklogs, http://flickr.com/photos/tomhe/95478571/in/set-72057594059427233/ -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 7 07:21:19 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Download link In-Reply-To: <20060206170010.23585.qmail@web36615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060206170010.23585.qmail@web36615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1051.62.158.114.129.1139296879.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > The other problem is that all the links to the > Editors sites and software all are timing out before I > can download. www.eigenheimstrasse.de was down yesterday (and will be down for some hours today). Should work at the moment. Ciao, Imi. From erjohan at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 07:20:53 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: References: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> Message-ID: On 2/7/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > Tax-exemption could take even longer, but we don't > have that option in Sweden. Are there any organization that have tax-exemption already setup here in Europe or the US, would it be possible to piggy back on them for donations? I think you should setup the organization so you can receive funds in some kind of coordinated way, even if you don't get tax-exemption. I would like to support Lars sugestion for board, since I've only seen positive things/results from you guys on the board. And even though it hurts I would more than gladly give you 700SEK a year. -- /Erik Skolelinux & Runeberg - ?r n?got av det trevligaste som kommit fr?n Norge/Sverige. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 7 13:20:13 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] no dots In-Reply-To: References: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602070520w3544937ble3fc212871ba3a5@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > Steve, at age 39 and being a coordinator and sole programmer of > several Internet projects in the last 15 years, I think I have a > pretty good grasp on reality. I think you have way too much on > your own to-do list, and you should encourage more people to get > involved instead of trying to cover everything on your own. There are very few bits of the OSM tool chain which aren't open to contributions. The main criteria for this is JFDI. > I'm starting to think that Isle of > Wight could be a good time for a founding meeting. But there > still is no date set for this excursion. I think we were waiting to see who would come... http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/OSM_Workshop#Maybe > > I would suggest you as chief technologist and Tom Carden as > chairman. I probably wouldn't want such a role, but I'm flattered you'd nominate me. I've been involved in starting organisations like this before, and I'm just not very good at it unless I give it my full and proper attention - something I just can't do with my current work/study commitments. > Petter could be treasurer and I could volunteer as > secretary, if there are no other suggestions. I would suggest an > annual membership fee of 50 UKP = 75 EUR = 550 DKK = 600 NOK > = 700 SEK. You would have 20-30 members in a flick, and enough > fees to purchase the first server of OSM's own.2 > I give time and attention to OSM in abundance. I'm not sure I want to pay for its hosting costs. I think there are better ways to bootstrap this. I don't think subscriptions would be sustainable or scaleable in the long-term. I think the way forward is for OSM to become something like 'Flickr for maps' or 'del.icio.us for places' (not the first time that's been suggested). People will then gladly pay for something they perceive as having social value, and for those who won't/can't pay, then showing ads isn't out of the question. I have lots of ideas for how this would work, but they are somewhat at odds with the idea that OSM is the 'wikipedia of maps'. I know the 'wikipedia of maps' idea is a favourite amongst many OSM contributors - that's one reason why I wouldn't volunteer as chairman. > That is a kind of organization that I could send donations to and > recruit more members to. But right now I have no idea what kind > you are coming up with or "working on". So I'm held in suspense, > trying to keep my expectations as low as I can, never to be > disappointed. > > As Petter said, piggy-backing on an existing organization could > cut the overhead even further. > Yes. If it's just a case of getting things paid for, I would prefer this route. Setting up a charity/non-profit in the UK is fairly tricky, and then there are restrictions on what you can do (can't lobby for political change, for example). Let's see whether Steve's funding applications pay off, and in the meantime have a think about the bigger issues... we all believe in bottom-up citizen-powered collaborative creation of geo-data, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Most of us believe that the results of the collaboration should be Free as in freedom. Many of us believe it should be free as in beer, too. But not many of us has a clear understanding of how much it will cost to host and maintain, and where that money should come from. Or even in the long term, what things should and shouldn't OSM host? Best, Tom. From arnulf.christl at ccgis.de Tue Feb 7 13:33:15 2006 From: arnulf.christl at ccgis.de (Arnulf Christl) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [Mapbender-users] My City Map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E8A19B.4090903@ccgis.de> Sorry, cross post. Anirban Biswas wrote: > Hi > > I am very new to GIS and just few hours ago I downloaded > MapBender and able to install it. Currently I fighing with it to learn > the whole thing. :-) Hello, sorry for not answering earlier but I was busy elsewhere and your question is rather broad... I'll try to give you a few first hints. Please let us know whether the documentation in the Wiki is any good for you. > Acctually my plan is to develop a electronic map of my City ( > Kolkata). My plan is like this , need a good paper map and scan it , > then use GRASS to digitize it then use MapServer or some Web Mapping > tools to query the vector map generated by GRASS This is a good plan, though you must know that this is a rather large task you set out on! Additionally make sure that you do not breach any copyrights of the paper maps doing this *before* starting! It would probably be best to use a relational database for storage right from the start. At least make sure to create vector data that conforms to the OGC specs to get them managed easily later. Use the PostgreSQL database with the PostGIS spatial extension. Store the spatial data using the geometry datatype implemented with PostGIS (it is OGC). That way you will immedately be able to access it using GeoServer as WFS-T and render maps using MapServer as WMS. Once you have done this - and only then - you can start using Mapbender to show and navigate the maps. So this list might be of higher interest to you at a later stage only. But as you are here already you can come up with more questions as they arise, we will try to guide you to the corresponding sepcialists. > Since I have very little knowledge about GIS I wan to know is > it possible to query the vector map I generated with GRASS. If > possible then is there any good documentation from where I can learn > MapBender. Either use GRASS directly to edit the vectors or try qGIS to get started (mind me, I am neither GRASS nor qGIS user, so I cannot give you much practical advice). Mapbender currently implements basic digitizing functionality but it will take a few more weeks until it is available in a stable version. We are glad if you would start to test it as soon as we have something usable in the CVS. We will announce this on this list. For higher level / power user editing it will be more comfortable to use GRASS, qGIS or uDig. > I also get very attracted to MapBender cause its wiki style. > My plan is also develop my City map in a Wiki style cause it is almost > impossible for a single mortal to digitize a City map by himself. So a > web interface which can accept digital map of my city from other ppl > will be helpful. This is exactly what we are planning to use Mapbender for. But it is a rather extensive task and the Mediawiki software is cool but for some strange reason they do not have it running on PostgreSQL yet. That would make things a lot easier for us as we could store the geometries directly using Wiki tech for history and indexing. > Hope that I able to make you guys clear what I want ?? :-) Yes you did and you are welcome to share more of your thoughts. Additionally you might want to get into contact with the Mumbai Free map project and openstreetmap. http://freemap.in/ http://www.openstreetmap.org/ Have fun! Best regards, Arnulf. > Anirban Biswas. > -- > Masjid dha de, mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda > Par kisi da dil na dhain, Rab dilan vich rehnda.. > > English > Tear down the mosque and the temple; break everything in sight > But do not break a person's heart, it is there that God resides > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=k&kid3432&bid#0486&dat1642 > _______________________________________________ > Mapbender-users mailing list > Mapbender-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mapbender-users From waban_star at yahoo.com Tue Feb 7 17:07:51 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Saving JOSM Message-ID: <20060207170751.1881.qmail@web36607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Am unable to save XML file from JOSMto my desktop, in Beta. I seem to have uploaded my edits to server, I'll check later to see how it works. I just double click on desktop on applet to run, hope that is correct as I read about having to build somewhere. wabanstar __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Thu Feb 9 09:38:04 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Saving JOSM In-Reply-To: <20060207170751.1881.qmail@web36607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060207170751.1881.qmail@web36607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51332.80.246.32.40.1139477884.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, unfortunatly I don't understand what you mean... > Am unable to save XML file from JOSMto my desktop, in > Beta. Do you use the JOSM Beta Version? If so, please upgrade to latest JOSM version or at least JOSM-1.0. http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm-latest.jar http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm.jar > I seem to have uploaded my edits to server, I'll > check later to see how it works. Now I am confused, since JOSM-Beta can not upload anything (there is no Upload-Button in the Beta ;). You can check your edits just after you uploaded them in JOSM. This is unlike the applet, where your changes (and changes made with JOSM) are only visible after some period due to cache problems. > I just double click on desktop on applet to run, hope > that is correct as I read about having to build > somewhere. Now I am really confused. :). You said you already uploaded stuff to the server, so you were able to run JOSM before, but now it sounds like you have problems starting JOSM at all?? You don't need to compile JOSM, if you download the .jar - File. On a Mac, you may be able to just double click on the file. This may not work with Linux or Windows. If you are using Linux and KDE, you can look at my setup-tutorial to configure your System to run .jar files on a click: http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/tutorials/setting_up_kde.avi If you are talking about launching JOSM pre-loaded with an xml file when you click on it, I have bad news: It is currently not possible to launch JOSM with a file opened. Please be aware, that JOSM 1.0 is a bit buggy when handling files saved to disk and reloaded. It is adviced to restart JOSM every time you saved a file to disk.. :-( See http://wiki.eigenheimstrasse.de/wiki?title=JOSM/Bugs for more about this. Ciao, Imi. From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Thu Feb 9 11:06:29 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Missing header files in tar? Message-ID: <200602091206.30297.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> Hi, I just downloaded http://www.free-map.org.uk/downloads/osmeditor-rev-633.tar.bz2 and tried to compile, but I think there are two Files missing: Thanks for any hint. $ make c++ -w -g -I/usr/include/qt3 `curl-config --cflags` -I/usr/local/include -Ijeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7 -c -o osmeditor.o osmeditor.cpp c++ -w -g -I/usr/include/qt3 `curl-config --cflags` -I/usr/local/include -Ijeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7 -c -o MainWindow.o MainWindow.cpp c++ -w -g -I/usr/include/qt3 `curl-config --cflags` -I/usr/local/include -Ijeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7 -c -o GPSDevice.o GPSDevice.cpp In file included from GPSDevice.cpp:26: jeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7/gps.h:173:22: error: gpsinput.h: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden jeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7/gps.h:174:21: error: gpsproj.h: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden make: *** [GPSDevice.o] Fehler 1 -- http://www.ostertag.name/ From pere at hungry.com Thu Feb 9 11:14:28 2006 From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit better (Was: no dots) References: <20060206235829.GC26843@asklater.com> Message-ID: <2fl7j84hjhn.fsf_-_@saruman.uio.no> [Lars Aronsson] > I would suggest you as chief technologist and Tom Carden as > chairman. Petter could be treasurer and I could volunteer as > secretary, if there are no other suggestions. I am not unwilling to contribute making such thing happen, but I believe it is a better route to piggy-back on an existing organization. I'm already the leader of Norwegian Unix Users Group, a active Debian developer, technical coordinator of the Skolelinux project a board member of the skolelinux foundation (SLX Debian LAbs), trying to get a privacy assosiation up and running here in Norway, involved in the patent discussion and working on free map projects. I do not really expect to have much time to work on setting up or running a new organization. Especially when I suspect it isn't really needed. Did anyone consider the new Open Source Geospatial Foundation as a organization to piggy-back on? It seem to be right up our ally. :) See for example and for info on this foundation. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Feb 9 11:57:07 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit better (Was: no dots) In-Reply-To: <2fl7j84hjhn.fsf_-_@saruman.uio.no> Message-ID: The OSGF basic website is now up and running at http://www.osgeo.org/ Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Petter Reinholdtsen >Sent: 09 February 2006 11:14 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit >better (Was: no dots) > > >[Lars Aronsson] >> I would suggest you as chief technologist and Tom Carden as >> chairman. Petter could be treasurer and I could volunteer as >> secretary, if there are no other suggestions. > >I am not unwilling to contribute making such thing happen, but I >believe it is a better route to piggy-back on an existing organization. > >I'm already the leader of Norwegian Unix Users Group, a active Debian >developer, technical coordinator of the Skolelinux project a board >member of the skolelinux foundation (SLX Debian LAbs), trying to get a >privacy assosiation up and running here in Norway, involved in the >patent discussion and working on free map projects. I do not really >expect to have much time to work on setting up or running a new >organization. Especially when I suspect it isn't really needed. > >Did anyone consider the new Open Source Geospatial Foundation as a >organization to piggy-back on? It seem to be right up our ally. :) > >See for example > >and >for info on this foundation. > > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Thu Feb 9 12:38:21 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Missing header files in tar? Message-ID: Joerg Ostertag 09/02/2006 11:06 Sent by: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk cc: Subject: [Openstreetmap] Missing header files in tar? >Hi, >I just downloaded >http://www.free-map.org.uk/downloads/osmeditor-rev-633.tar.bz2 >and tried to compile, but I think there are two Files missing: >Thanks for any hint. I wouldn't use that version. It's very out of date. Use the latest version from Subversion, if you're not sure how to set Subversion up let me know and I can send you a tar file of the latest version. Nick _______________________________________________ Openstreetmap mailing list Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Thu Feb 9 16:01:15 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Missing header files in tar? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091701.15710.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> On Thursday 09 February 2006 13:38, Nick Whitelegg wrote: ... > >http://www.free-map.org.uk/downloads/osmeditor-rev-633.tar.bz2 Would be great if someone would update it. > I wouldn't use that version. It's very out of date. > Use the latest version from Subversion, if you're not sure how to set > Subversion up let me know and I can send you a tar file of the latest > version. OK it compiles now. Thanks debuild won't work on debian testing systems, since dpkg-buildpackage: source package is osmeditor dpkg-buildpackage: source version is 0.0.1-1 dpkg-buildpackage: source changed by Petter Reinholdtsen dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture i386 dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libqt3-dev dpkg-buildpackage: Build dependencies/conflicts unsatisfied; aborting. dpkg-buildpackage: (Use -d flag to override.) debuild: fatal error at line 767: dpkg-buildpackage failed! But I don't know hot to install libqt3-dev, since 'apt-get install libqt3-dev' tells me the following: Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done Package libqt3-dev is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source However the following packages replace it: qt3-qtconfig qt3-linguist qt3-dev-tools-embedded qt3-dev-tools-compat qt3-dev-tools qt3-designer qt3-assistant qt3-apps-dev libqt3-mt-dev libqt3-headers libqt3-compat-headers E: Package libqt3-dev has no installation candidate So I think these dependencies could be updated. - Joerg From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Thu Feb 9 16:07:13 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] SIGSEG trying to read from GPS Message-ID: <200602091707.13672.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> I get a SIGSEG while trying to read from GPS in the actual svn Version. ./osmeditor constructor end constructor calling trackFunc garminGetTrack() port/dev/ttyS0 calling GPS_Init error GPS read of track done. GPS read of waypoints done. readGPS() done Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x0806b439 in std::vector >::begin (this=0x4) at stl_vector.h:343 343 { return const_iterator (this->_M_impl._M_start); } (gdb) bt #0 0x0806b439 in std::vector >::begin (this=0x4) at stl_vector.h:343 #1 0x0806b4d9 in std::vector >::size (this=0x4) at stl_vector.h:403 #2 0x08075e68 in OpenStreetMap::Track::getAveragePoint (this=0x0) at Track.cpp:329 #3 0x0806961a in OpenStreetMap::Components::getAveragePoint (this=0x81e1e80) at Components.h:139 #4 0x08055594 in OpenStreetMap::MainWindow::readGPS (this=0xbfec0670) at MainWindow.cpp:527 #5 0x08084c3f in OpenStreetMap::MainWindow::qt_invoke (this=0xbfec0670, _id=63, _o=0xbfebfb00) at moc_MainWindow.cpp:164 #6 0xb7b1e58c in QObject::activate_signal () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #7 0xb7e52b7a in QSignal::signal () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #8 0xb7b3878d in QSignal::activate () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #9 0xb7c211d2 in QPopupMenu::accelActivated () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #10 0xb7e68498 in QPopupMenu::qt_invoke () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #11 0xb7b1e58c in QObject::activate_signal () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #12 0xb7b1e6ed in QObject::activate_signal () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #13 0xb7e4ad02 in QAccel::activated () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #14 0xb7abc0e1 in QAccelPrivate::activate () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #15 0xb7abab22 in QAccelManager::dispatchAccelEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #16 0xb7ab9c1e in qt_dispatchAccelEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #17 0xb7ac18b5 in QApplication::notify () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #18 0xb7aba198 in QAccelManager::tryAccelEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #19 0xb7ab9b8e in qt_tryAccelEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #20 0xb7a59bff in QETWidget::translateKeyEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #21 0xb7a55432 in QApplication::x11ProcessEvent () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #22 0xb7a6c306 in QEventLoop::processEvents () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #23 0xb7ad4468 in QEventLoop::enterLoop () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #24 0xb7ad4318 in QEventLoop::exec () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #25 0xb7ac24a1 in QApplication::exec () from /usr/lib/libqt.so.3 #26 0x0805266b in main (argc=1, argv=0xbfec0994) at osmeditor.cpp:58 From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 9 17:43:12 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update Message-ID: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> Hi all Thanks for your patience, here is an update of what I've been doing. First, the Isle of White. I'm working on this but there are a lot of variables. Cost depends on dates, peoples dates depend on costs, feasability relies on number of people and so on. So to pin it down, please enter all the dates you can come in to this: http://www.meetomatic.com/respond.asp?id=KF05JJ It willl magically figure out the best (perhaps long) weekend to run it. From that I can get quotes on accomodation and car rental and we can see if it can fly. Hosting. I've been speaking to various people and companies, including people on this list about hosting. None of them are definite yet. It's not nice to persue multiple routes but I don't think they'll all succeed. We need hosting (physical location for the computers), bandwidth and then actual computers. There is a glimmer that all three will be available from different sources. We have one success. Bytemark.co.uk have very kindly donated one of their VM's for our use. Whilst this won't host the entire operation, it can host the wiki, mailing list, svn and so on. The 'little bits'. It may seem more sensible to keep them with the main site but architecturaly it's good to spin them off. The mailing list needs python, the wiki php and so on which just bloat Apache as OSM doesn't need them. It also immediately frees processing on bat, the machine that runs all these things and OSM. So the competition is now open for what to call the mailing lists. openstreetmap@openstreetmap.org anyone? Links to the wiki, news and so on will magically work as I move things over. Foundation. I've had legal and financial advice from qualified people and from some people who've been running companies for a while, and from those running non-profits. It's clear that a charity in the UK is a very difficult thing to set up and maintain. I have secured the legal help required to set the official articles of association if we go down a non-profit route. In any case it's very little or no cost to do. There is an issue of where and how to set this up. For example it's twice been mentioned that the Isle of Man reduces any tax burden. US corporations can be set up pretty cheaply and we could be some thread coming off an existing linux group or someone like the os geospatial foundation. I'm (or will be) actively talking to people from ORG (UK based thing), os geo and others to see what's possible. I'm slightly hesitant about os geo because of the software focus, the fact we don't use any of it, and the US focus where we're mostly EU here. But we'll see. In any case there is a need for a body to be the owner of the domains and copyrights for what we've created otherwise attribution of the map means a massive list of 1200 people for anyone doing something with the map. I'm also taking seriously the offers Architecture. I'm pretty hesitant about just apointing people within a notional foundation. It's a bit top down and we have 'open' in our name. On the other hand we need people who'll actually do things. Therefore I'd like to have a debate about this idea: Some roles are voted in from out top (say) 100 editors. The database knows who's doing lots of work, so allow those people to nominate a subset of their number for roles. Once some of these things are settled a bit more we can have a first meeting and / or IRC meetings. The Isle of White could be the venue, but given the diversity of everyone here I'd think Europe (though CeBIT was a nightmare for me when I last went) would be better. Perhaps around another F/OSS conference. License. I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of moving to cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. A-la Tom's comment of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, not the wikipedia of maps. Is that the case? It helps tremendously to be under cc-nc when talking to companies who'd support us in exchange for things. opengeodata.org I'm the proud owner of opengeodata.org and I thought I'd do three things with it. First, make it a generic site with multiple people blogging about opengeodata. Second, make openstreetmaps unloved 'news' blog a section within opengeodata.org. Third, open a blog there to all registered members of OSM. This is somewhat inspied by http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/User:LA2#Diary and other people who'd requested the ability to do that. Thoughts? If I've missed something, apologies. Lastly, a bit of fun: http://www.pintcast.net/ have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 9 17:44:52 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update oops Message-ID: <20060209174452.GJ2337@asklater.com> I forgot to say thanks to Andy who's volunteered to take specific things off my hands. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From thomas at walraet.com Thu Feb 9 18:17:02 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> References: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> Message-ID: <43EB871E.2000006@walraet.com> SteveC a ?crit : > > License. > > I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of moving to > cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. A-la Tom's comment > of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, not the wikipedia of maps. > Is that the case? We can have a poll concerning this issue... 'non-commercial' make the licence non-free (FSF or Debian meaning) and my preference is to make a free map. > It helps tremendously to be under cc-nc when talking to companies who'd > support us in exchange for things. :-/ From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Thu Feb 9 18:37:51 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update Message-ID: > >> I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of moving to >> cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. A-la Tom's comment >> of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, not the wikipedia of maps. >> Is that the case? >We can have a poll concerning this issue... The wikipedia of maps would suggest an editable map to which everyone could contribute. That was my understanding of OSM... just out of interest what is the alternative? Nick From crschmidt at crschmidt.net Thu Feb 9 18:45:22 2006 From: crschmidt at crschmidt.net (Christopher Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060209184522.GC7008@crschmidt.net> On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 06:37:51PM +0000, Nick Whitelegg wrote: > > > > > > >> I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of moving to > >> cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. A-la Tom's comment > >> of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, not the wikipedia of maps. > >> Is that the case? > > >We can have a poll concerning this issue... > > The wikipedia of maps would suggest an editable map to which everyone could > contribute. That was my understanding of OSM... just out of interest what > is the alternative? Wikipedia allows reproduction of their dataset for commerical gain. Licensing data under a CC-NC license would prevent that. It would also prevent any use I personally have for the project: I have Google Maps running on all my mapping applications (via Ning), and the main thing that I really want OSM to become is a free/open Worldwide Geocoder. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer From crschmidt at crschmidt.net Thu Feb 9 18:47:53 2006 From: crschmidt at crschmidt.net (Christopher Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <20060209184522.GC7008@crschmidt.net> References: <20060209184522.GC7008@crschmidt.net> Message-ID: <20060209184753.GD7008@crschmidt.net> On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 01:45:22PM -0500, Christopher Schmidt wrote: > prevent any use I personally have for the project: I have Google Maps s/Maps/ads/ Bad fingers. -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer From arnulf.christl at ccgis.de Thu Feb 9 19:24:54 2006 From: arnulf.christl at ccgis.de (Arnulf Christl) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit better (Was: no dots) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EB9706.6090907@ccgis.de> Andy Robinson wrote: > The OSGF basic website is now up and running at http://www.osgeo.org/ > > Andy > > Andy Robinson > Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk Hey, the current web site does not reflect the data issue well yet (its hacking geeks who started it). Prominent support to the idea of freely accessible spatial data was given by the GRASS GIS community (Markus Neteler), Schuyler and the other usual suspects. Additionally to the software perspective we need and want a strong data centric position within the OSGeo Foundation. openstreetmap has been mentioned several times and as a long time list lurker I'd really like to see one of you represented it in the OSGeo. Currently the 'second tranche' of the member nomination runs and I would very much like to nominate or second whoever you think makes sense to represent openstreetmap in the foundation. If you figure out who that should be I would be happy to nominate him or her (yes, not many women anywhere in geek world...). Mind me, there is a lot of additional work waiting for you but on the other hand you get the whole bunch of top-of-the-edge-hackers and packages served to the tip of your hands as well as loads of promotion and visibility. OSGeo is working on providing hardware and bandwidth to host a full fledged SDI stack including WFS-T, WMS, PostgreSQL/PostGIS storage and all the other goodies around it. All that we could host for a starter would be a boring VMAP level 0. Sucks. We need living data and you can provide it. Oh man, there is so much more... we have set out collecting hundres of WMS and dozens alone that render high res ortho photography of German cities. There are more every day. Sure, there are also loads of problems like strange coordinate systems and so on but look at that speed: http://wms1.ccgis.de/mapbender2/frames/login.php?name=mb&password=mb&mb_user_myGui=mb_perf_mon (We operate the client frame on a clumsy old back up server but the imagery is requested directly by your browser from the City of Nuremberg. Click on the page symbol to get the metadata.) Anyway, whatever, keep up the good work! Best, Arnulf. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >>bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Petter Reinholdtsen >>Sent: 09 February 2006 11:14 >>To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >>Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit >>better (Was: no dots) >> >> >>[Lars Aronsson] >> >>>I would suggest you as chief technologist and Tom Carden as >>>chairman. Petter could be treasurer and I could volunteer as >>>secretary, if there are no other suggestions. >> >>I am not unwilling to contribute making such thing happen, but I >>believe it is a better route to piggy-back on an existing organization. >> >>I'm already the leader of Norwegian Unix Users Group, a active Debian >>developer, technical coordinator of the Skolelinux project a board >>member of the skolelinux foundation (SLX Debian LAbs), trying to get a >>privacy assosiation up and running here in Norway, involved in the >>patent discussion and working on free map projects. I do not really >>expect to have much time to work on setting up or running a new >>organization. Especially when I suspect it isn't really needed. >> >>Did anyone consider the new Open Source Geospatial Foundation as a >>organization to piggy-back on? It seem to be right up our ally. :) >> >>See for example >> >>and >>for info on this foundation. From lars at aronsson.se Thu Feb 9 20:05:11 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> References: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> Message-ID: SteveC wrote: > I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of > moving to cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. > A-la Tom's comment of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, > not the wikipedia of maps. Is that the case? I must admit I didn't understand what Tom meant with his comment, so I'd welcome him to clarify this. What is a "flickr of maps" and how would that work? I have some photos on flickr and nobody can edit them. Flickr is a for-profit company that sells premium services and that was acquired by Yahoo. Which of these aspects could OSM emulate? No, I'm not sarcastic, I really want to know. I personally don't want NC, so maybe I would draw my maps at home and dual license them. This should be possible with offline editing and free availability to tracklogs (or my own at least). I think it would be a severe limitation if OSM maps couldn't be combined with the GpsDrive software and sold on a CDROM, or included in one of the commercial Linux distributions together with Project Gutenberg e-texts and Wikipedia and Wikitravel articles. I'm not a philosopher, but I tend to agree with Erik M?ller's (Wikipedia username Eloquence, former Wikipedia research officer) Kuro5hin article from September 12, 2005, "Creative Commons -NC Licenses Considered Harmful", http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/9/11/16331/0655 To be more precise, there are two kinds of works: Monolithic ones such as recorded song albums or novels, where I can understand the need for NC and ND (no derivatives allowed, copying and redistribution allowed on a non-commercial basis only), because "the whole work is the work" and the creator can want to sell to a publisher the rights to printed copies. Then there are works that function more or less like a box of LEGO bricks, where much of the joy comes from reshaping, remixing, picking out parts, recombinging, repurposing, such as Wikipedia, Wikitravel, and Open Street Map. These are works where ND would be devastating and where I don't like NC. In my opinion, Erik M?ller's article is only applicable to works of this latter kind, and that's where I agree with him. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From streetmap at blibbleblobble.co.uk Thu Feb 9 20:15:40 2006 From: streetmap at blibbleblobble.co.uk (Oliver White) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> References: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> Message-ID: <200602092015.41427.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> On Thursday 09 February 2006 17:43, SteveC wrote: > I'm concerned that nobody was much bothered about ideas of moving to > cc-non-commercial or putting google ads on the site. A-la Tom's comment > of becoming the delicious or flickr of maps, not the wikipedia of maps. > Is that the case? If nobody has voiced an opinion on this, then I'll say that cc-nc would make our data much less useful than cc-by-sa Firstly, compatibility. cc-by-sa seems to be the norm for various projects (e.g. geograph.org.uk), and the CC licenses seem to imply that you can only transfer data between identically licensed ones. Secondly, Wikipedia. cc-nc can't be used to illustrate articles, and would hinder a printed or CD-ROM Wikipedia. Thirdly, commercial contributors. If some company wants to finish the map of their area in return for being able to display it in their office, or in a leaflet, cc-nc would prevent them doing so. Forthly, it requires everyone to assign copyright if we want to resell cc-nc data. Which in turn prevents us from using the data on our own websites (if for whatever reason we don't qualify as noncommercial) Lastly, how would a cc-nc OpenStreetmap project be any different to Ordnance Survey? You can download their maps for personal use, and display a selection on your website. Didn't we start this project to get *free* maps? (with the usual definitions of free) Others contributors may have differing opinions, but I'm not convinced that it's right to sacrifice freedom to redistribute, just to try and secure a temporary improvement in cashflow. It also might be seen as a "poison pill" to prevent forks (no culinary pun intended), which isn't normally a good sign in a free software project. Regards OJW From lars at aronsson.se Thu Feb 9 21:47:18 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Organizing the OSM community and funding a bit better (Was: no dots) In-Reply-To: <43EB9706.6090907@ccgis.de> References: <43EB9706.6090907@ccgis.de> Message-ID: Arnulf Christl wrote: > All that we could host for a starter would be a boring VMAP > level 0. Sucks. We need living data and you can provide it. Apart from the direct foundation/organization issues, I think there are two areas where you could provide valuable input: 1. What data formats and models would the OSGF community prefer for the OSM output? So far I have only been creating OSM maps because it was fun to do, but I haven't yet seen anybody use them. I think I need feedback from users to improve and focus my work. What are the (non-free?) VMAP level 0 dataset that we could replace? Where is it used? Is this the new ESRI DCW? 2. What license (CC-NC or not) would the OSGF community prefer for the OSM output? I assume many OSGF members/supporters using your software (GRASS, MapServer, etc.) together with proprietary datasets (e.g. British Ordnance Survey). Are they in the dependency situation that Steve described, where they might be afraid to cooperate with people who are outspoken enemies of the Ordnance Survey monopoly? Would they prefer that OSM adopt a lame NC license? Or conversely, can we realistically enforce the ShareAlike component of the CC license to achive a viral/ripple/cascade effect similar to GPL, so that if the O.S. would use OSM map data they would have to release their own datasets under the same free license? If we cannot enforce this, perhaps we should just as well release our map data into the public domain. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From waban_star at yahoo.com Fri Feb 10 05:56:22 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads Message-ID: <20060210055622.19927.qmail@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Using JOSM I uploaded a number of edits over the last several days but they aren't showing up on OSM yet, When I check no streets anywher are visible, don't want to waste time editing if the uploads area failing and If I can't save to my desktop means the data made and time spent is lost. Been 3-4 days so far. wabanstar __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From richard at systemeD.net Fri Feb 10 09:10:02 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <200602092015.41427.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> References: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> <200602092015.41427.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060210091002.940gd7yi8ssogg4s@webmail.systemed.net> Hi all, Oliver wrote: > If nobody has voiced an opinion on this, then I'll say that cc-nc would > make our data much less useful than cc-by-sa ...and others contributed similarly. I'll set out my personal stall on this first of all. I would ideally like OSM data to be as public domain as possible. No non-commercial restriction, no share-alike restriction, nothing. Just: Here's some great data which we've enjoyed making. Go and do wondrous things with it. But we have a problem. OSM ain't free to run. Servers, bandwidth, and (inevitably, I think, at some point) full-time staff: _we_ need to pay for all of them. We need all this to be able to create and edit the data. But those outside the project who might want to use the data don't need the technology at all - well, apart from enough CPU power to download it once. And as the data inevitably, marvellously grows, this is much more likely to happen. So we have the weird position where those who make the data could end up subsidising those who profit from it. Go figure. CC-NC is one way around this and I can understand why it's been suggested. It's also a bit of a blunt instrument, for the reasons Oliver, Lars and Christopher have suggested. But frankly, there probably is no single licence out there that meets our needs. (IMO, CC licences are for literary/creative works, the GPL is for software, and neither are suitable for geodata. For starters, we need some serious clarity on what constitutes a "derivative work" under Share-Alike. Let's say you use some OSM data in a small map on your website. Do you then have to release the content of your whole site under CC-BY-SA? Or say you do a Google Maps-type mashup of some nice civic information that you've scrounged out of the Government - but you place the points on OSM data, not gmaps. Is this forbidden because the civic data isn't sharealike/PD?) Maybe we're going about this arse-about-face. Maybe it would be better to set out what we actually want our licence to do, _then_ decide which one best meets our needs - or (whisper) write our own. cheers Richard From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Fri Feb 10 10:24:11 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: References: <20060209174312.GI2337@asklater.com> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602100224gc157fe2y9b2cd6a7a700b627@mail.gmail.com> On 2/9/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > > I must admit I didn't understand what Tom meant with his comment, > so I'd welcome him to clarify this. What is a "flickr of maps" > and how would that work? I have some photos on flickr and nobody > can edit them. Flickr is a for-profit company that sells premium > services and that was acquired by Yahoo. Which of these aspects > could OSM emulate? No, I'm not sarcastic, I really want to know. > Yes, I admit that just throwing "Flickr of maps" out there isn't a great way to describe what I mean, but basically what I'm talking about is a shift in emphasis from pseudo-anonymous uncredited editing of maps to socialising *around* maps. What Jyri Engestrom identifies as "object-centered sociality" http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2005/04/why_some_social.html Let's make cool tools that sit on top of a mapping layer, and make that mapping layer publicly editable. Let's make good maps happen as a by-product of the fact that people have stories to tell, and want to make map to do it. It would be about users feeling like they had some real shared ownership of the data, and some kind of presence on openstreetmap.org. You would be able to go to any user and see what maps they had been editing recently, and what they had to say about those areas. Taken to it's extreme conclusion, when I get home from a trip I upload my photos to flickr. I'm sure lots of you already routinely upload your GPX tracks to OpenStreetMap. If it was totally analagous to Flickr, I could see your latest tracks, comment on them, add tags, etc - and those tags would be associated with you, as well as the map. At the moment, OSM's "tags" are just subsumed into one great whole... they aren't personal, they aren't fun, and I don't think they're tags at all in the same sense as del.icio.us or flickr has tags. I should be concentrating on other things so I'll leave it there, but hopefully you can see how this would be very different to wikipedia (not as freeform, not as anonymous, more room for egos, etc). But you can also see how a site like this might appeal to different people than we appeal to now. The two approaches could live side by side, of course, and what I'm talking about could sit on top of a 'wikipedia of maps', but I'd like to see them tightly coupled together so that people almost build the maps by accident, just because they have something to say about them. I'm not saying it's better, I'm just turning it on its head and seeing how it looks. Interested in your thoughts, Tom. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 10 10:37:52 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads In-Reply-To: <20060210055622.19927.qmail@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The simplest way to be sure that your edits made it to the database is to download the nodes and segments from the server in a fresh instance of JOSM. If you see your nodes and segments in JOSM then they made it to the database and the reason they are not being seen in the online viewer is most likely due to the 48 hour cache refresh delay for the particular map tile(s) in question. In Firefox you can right click a tile and then "View Image" which will show you the individual tile, then by hitting CTRL+R you can refresh that specific tile to ensure you are viewing the most up to date version that the server cache has. Note though when you do this, after returning to the full map with the browser back button you will find that the original zoom level is loaded. To get round this I change the zoom level manually in the address line rather than using the +/- buttons in the viewer. Hope this helps. Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of wabanstar >Sent: 10 February 2006 05:56 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads > >Using JOSM I uploaded a number of edits over the last >several days but they aren't showing up on OSM yet, >When I check no streets anywher are visible, don't >want to waste time editing if the uploads area failing >and If I can't save to my desktop means the data made >and time spent is lost. Been 3-4 days so far. >wabanstar > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From thomas at walraet.com Fri Feb 10 10:49:06 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EC6FA2.5070900@walraet.com> Andy Robinson a ?crit : > > Note though when you do this, after returning to the full > map with the browser back button you will find that the original zoom level > is loaded. To get round this I change the zoom level manually in the address > line rather than using the +/- buttons in the viewer. After moving/zooming the map, you can clic the "View" tab to have the URL corresponding to the current viewed location. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 10 11:00:16 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <20060210091002.940gd7yi8ssogg4s@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: Nicely put Richard. I concur with your thoughts here. I am "happy" providing data which creates the OSM database and equally "happy" to see this data used for whatever anyone wants to use it for, including me. However I'm also wholly recognising that the service that I am using in creating the data for OSM (uploading GPS and creating map data in the database) comes at a price. So in reality I am using a potentially costly service for free right now. As the data grows we want to encourage more people to create the data that OSM holds, it is after all at its core a database of information. We do not want to discourage anyone from contributing data to this part of the process and therefore in my view it has to be free and without cost to do so - in fact there may be arguments to say that OSM should "pay" for some data, even if that payment is not actually in actual monitory terms. When it comes to using the data in the database though we need to cover the cost of storing it and providing it and unless someone is willing to sponsor the data retention and delivery (very unlikely?) there has to be a sustainable way of doing so and that means the project has to generate revenue in some way. The only way to generate revenue as the volume of data grows is in some way to charge for the volume extracted. That's how I would see it for a potential commercial use of the data. For non-commercial use I would expect to be able to get it for free, or at worst on a quid pro quo basis. Obviously it would be best if we can deliver it free for nc use using the proceeds of any commercial use licensing. Steve may have started out with the idea of creating free maps, but he has always said free as in freedom and I take that to me that it does not necessarily come without a price. I have very little knowledge of licensing (software, data or application) so I'll leave that to those better in the know. Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Richard Fairhurst >Sent: 10 February 2006 09:10 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] update > >Hi all, > >Oliver wrote: > >> If nobody has voiced an opinion on this, then I'll say that cc-nc would >> make our data much less useful than cc-by-sa > >...and others contributed similarly. > >I'll set out my personal stall on this first of all. I would ideally like >OSM >data to be as public domain as possible. No non-commercial restriction, no >share-alike restriction, nothing. Just: Here's some great data which we've >enjoyed making. Go and do wondrous things with it. > >But we have a problem. > >OSM ain't free to run. Servers, bandwidth, and (inevitably, I think, at >some >point) full-time staff: _we_ need to pay for all of them. We need all this >to >be able to create and edit the data. But those outside the project who >might >want to use the data don't need the technology at all - well, apart >from enough >CPU power to download it once. And as the data inevitably, marvellously >grows, >this is much more likely to happen. > >So we have the weird position where those who make the data could end up >subsidising those who profit from it. Go figure. > >CC-NC is one way around this and I can understand why it's been >suggested. It's >also a bit of a blunt instrument, for the reasons Oliver, Lars and >Christopher >have suggested. But frankly, there probably is no single licence out there >that meets our needs. > >(IMO, CC licences are for literary/creative works, the GPL is for >software, and >neither are suitable for geodata. For starters, we need some serious >clarity on >what constitutes a "derivative work" under Share-Alike. Let's say you use >some >OSM data in a small map on your website. Do you then have to release the >content of your whole site under CC-BY-SA? > >Or say you do a Google Maps-type mashup of some nice civic information that >you've scrounged out of the Government - but you place the points on OSM >data, >not gmaps. Is this forbidden because the civic data isn't sharealike/PD?) > >Maybe we're going about this arse-about-face. Maybe it would be better to >set >out what we actually want our licence to do, _then_ decide which one >best meets >our needs - or (whisper) write our own. > >cheers >Richard > > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 10 11:03:12 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602100224gc157fe2y9b2cd6a7a700b627@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I see what you are getting at here and I like the idea a lot. It's a cool way to go. However I also see that this is a layer of function and usability that sits as a layer on top of the guts and grunt of OSM. It's what makes OSM cool rather than what makes it happen. To make it happen we need a sustainable platform. It's how we get to that first step, bearing in mind the wish for cool features to be based upon it, that IMHO we must reconcile fairly swiftly. Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Tom Carden >Sent: 10 February 2006 10:24 >To: Lars Aronsson >Cc: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] update > >On 2/9/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: >> >> I must admit I didn't understand what Tom meant with his comment, >> so I'd welcome him to clarify this. What is a "flickr of maps" >> and how would that work? I have some photos on flickr and nobody >> can edit them. Flickr is a for-profit company that sells premium >> services and that was acquired by Yahoo. Which of these aspects >> could OSM emulate? No, I'm not sarcastic, I really want to know. >> > >Yes, I admit that just throwing "Flickr of maps" out there isn't a >great way to describe what I mean, but basically what I'm talking >about is a shift in emphasis from pseudo-anonymous uncredited editing >of maps to socialising *around* maps. What Jyri Engestrom identifies >as "object-centered sociality" >http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2005/04/why_some_social.html > >Let's make cool tools that sit on top of a mapping layer, and make >that mapping layer publicly editable. Let's make good maps happen as >a by-product of the fact that people have stories to tell, and want to >make map to do it. > >It would be about users feeling like they had some real shared >ownership of the data, and some kind of presence on openstreetmap.org. > You would be able to go to any user and see what maps they had been >editing recently, and what they had to say about those areas. > >Taken to it's extreme conclusion, when I get home from a trip I upload >my photos to flickr. I'm sure lots of you already routinely upload >your GPX tracks to OpenStreetMap. If it was totally analagous to >Flickr, I could see your latest tracks, comment on them, add tags, etc >- and those tags would be associated with you, as well as the map. At >the moment, OSM's "tags" are just subsumed into one great whole... >they aren't personal, they aren't fun, and I don't think they're tags >at all in the same sense as del.icio.us or flickr has tags. > >I should be concentrating on other things so I'll leave it there, but >hopefully you can see how this would be very different to wikipedia >(not as freeform, not as anonymous, more room for egos, etc). But you >can also see how a site like this might appeal to different people >than we appeal to now. > >The two approaches could live side by side, of course, and what I'm >talking about could sit on top of a 'wikipedia of maps', but I'd like >to see them tightly coupled together so that people almost build the >maps by accident, just because they have something to say about them. >I'm not saying it's better, I'm just turning it on its head and seeing >how it looks. > >Interested in your thoughts, > >Tom. > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 10 11:04:37 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads In-Reply-To: <43EC6FA2.5070900@walraet.com> Message-ID: Nice one Thomas. I hadn?t spotted that! Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk [mailto:openstreetmap- >bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Thomas Walraet >Sent: 10 February 2006 10:49 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Uploads > >Andy Robinson a ?crit : >> >> Note though when you do this, after returning to the full >> map with the browser back button you will find that the original zoom >level >> is loaded. To get round this I change the zoom level manually in the >address >> line rather than using the +/- buttons in the viewer. > >After moving/zooming the map, you can clic the "View" tab to have the >URL corresponding to the current viewed location. > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Fri Feb 10 11:26:09 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update Message-ID: Oliver White 09/02/2006 20:15 Sent by: openstreetmap-bounces@vr.ucl.ac.uk To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk cc: Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] update >If nobody has voiced an opinion on this, then I'll say that cc-nc would make >our data much less useful than cc-by-sa I would agree with this: for instance, I would have no problem (and indeed, would encourage) commercial publishers of walking books to use Freemap maps (using OSM data) to illustrate their walks. I Nick From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Fri Feb 10 13:11:15 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] JOSM saving problems solved (was: Uploads) In-Reply-To: <20060210055622.19927.qmail@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060210055622.19927.qmail@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45861.80.246.32.40.1139577075.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > and If I can't save to my desktop means the data made > and time spent is lost. Been 3-4 days so far. I fixed the problems with saving/reloading yesterday. It should work with the latest josm version (http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm-latest.jar). There will be a bugfix-release (Josm 1.1) in some days. Can't promise when, but expect it at monday or tuesday... For announcements, look at http://blog.eigenheimstrasse.de/?cat=5 Ciao, Imi. From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Fri Feb 10 13:22:31 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:34 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update Message-ID: >>Yes, I admit that just throwing "Flickr of maps" out there isn't >>great way to describe what I mean, but basically what I'm talki >>about is a shift in emphasis from pseudo-anonymous uncredited editing >>of maps to socialising *around* maps. What Jyri Engestrom identifies >>as "object-centered sociality" >>http://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2005/04/why_some_social.html >> >I see what you are getting at here and I like the idea a lot. It's a cool >way to go. However I also see that this is a layer of function and usability >that sits as a layer on top of the guts and grunt of OSM. It's what makes >OSM cool rather than what makes it happen. To make it happen we need a >sustainable platform. It's how we get to that first step, bearing in mind >the wish for cool features to be based upon it, that IMHO we must reconcile >fairly swiftly. Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion but I like the idea of OSM as a web service, a data provider, which can be connected to by different clients. Each client can pull out data relevant to itself, and present data - and offer functionality - appropriate to the client. For example free-map.org.uk can focus on countryside data, while FreeSouthamptonMap.org (not yet existent BTW) could focus on pubs, clubs, restaurants and cinemas. Each client could then grab what it likes out of OSM, but each client would have its own functionality. Each client could even have its own editor - for example Freemap could have an online editor particularly appropriate to members of the countryside. My preference (and Tom appears to be keen to try this out) is an SVG/AJAX editor (admittedly Firefox 1.5 only ATM). Nick From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Fri Feb 10 13:23:29 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] update Message-ID: ---------------------- Forwarded by Nick Whitelegg/FT/Southampton Institute on 10/02/2006 13:22 --------------------------- (Embedded image moved Nick Whitelegg to file: 10/02/2006 13:14 pic03625.jpg) Sorry Andy - meant to send this to the list. >Steve may have started out with the idea of creating free maps, but he has >always said free as in freedom and I take that to me that it does not >necessarily come without a price. My strong feeling the data itself should always be free, certainly for non-commercial entities and ideally for commercial entities too - just like the GPL and other free software licences like BSD. Any revenue streams I feel should follow the pattern already exhibited in the free software world, e.g support services (would this be relevant here though?) or box sets (in our case, printed maps). Even advertising would be ok as long as it was relevant, e.g. a Freemap map of the New Forest could feature advertising by local businesses. Nick _______________________________________________ Openstreetmap mailing list Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pic03625.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060210/1f44870c/pic03625.jpg From pere at hungry.com Fri Feb 10 14:03:01 2006 From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: update References: <20060210091002.940gd7yi8ssogg4s@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <2flr76be2ga.fsf@saruman.uio.no> [Andy Robinson] > The only way to generate revenue as the volume of data grows is in > some way to charge for the volume extracted. I'm not sure if this is one of your assumptions, but I believe this statement is incorrect. There are several other ways to generate revenue. One example is sponsoring as you too mention, another is to sell spin-off products, a third is to provide the data in one format for free and let those wanting a customized format to pay to have it generated. My point is that there are _several_ ways to generate revenue. I want the OSM data to be free as in speech, and free as defined in the Debian Free Software Guidelines. I want the OSM data to be free for both commercial and private use, because I believe that is the way we can have the largest effect on the society. I want OSM and free map data to help as many as possible to realize the advantages of maps, and excluding commercial users is limiting our effect on society. :) From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 10 16:57:07 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: update In-Reply-To: <2flr76be2ga.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Message-ID: Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: >Sent: 10 February 2006 14:03 >To: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: update > > >[Andy Robinson] >> The only way to generate revenue as the volume of data grows is in >> some way to charge for the volume extracted. > >I'm not sure if this is one of your assumptions, but I believe this >statement is incorrect. There are several other ways to generate >revenue. One example is sponsoring as you too mention, another is to >sell spin-off products, a third is to provide the data in one format >for free and let those wanting a customized format to pay to have it >generated. My point is that there are _several_ ways to generate >revenue. Sorry, I was too flippant in simplifying the funding options. Sponsorship: Absolutely, sponsorship would be a great way to fund the project. What I doubt though is that there is a big sugar daddy out there who is prepared to take the project on as a whole without something in return. We should though seek out sponsorship and grant opportunities, especially for the community and social benefits that OSM strives towards. Spin-off Products: I think this is probably the best way to raise funds, especially in the short term, however if OSM simply does what others can do with free OSM data then why would they necessarily buy from OSM, especially if an unconnected commercial venture has the capital available to develop a better output product than OSM can. Would we not want to protect this potential revenue stream in some way? Free and paid for services: If you mean ultimately a Google-ish like model of a basic free map and with premium services then would OSM be any different than Google say in what it actually offers. I think there will always be others out there who can find better uses for the OSM database than OSM itself can. Just look at what's happening with the Google API's. What would be possible even now with Google's API's if free OSM data replaced the Teleatlas etc base data. Enhanced layers are all well and good provided they are sufficiently interesting for people to pay for them, and sadly I suspect that others might be able to do a better job of this than OSM itself can (commercial or non-commercial). >I want the OSM data to be free as in speech, and free as defined in >the Debian Free Software Guidelines. I want the OSM data to be free >for both commercial and private use, because I believe that is the way >we can have the largest effect on the society. I want OSM and free >map data to help as many as possible to realize the advantages of >maps, and excluding commercial users is limiting our effect on >society. :) > It really would be great to have this sort of impact on the global community. Alas though it needs to fund itself to realize the dream so I think some compromises are inevitable. I'm enjoying the discussion :) > >_______________________________________________ >Openstreetmap mailing list >Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk >http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk From lars at aronsson.se Fri Feb 10 18:36:03 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Uploads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy Robinson wrote: > In Firefox you can right click a tile and then "View Image" > which will show you the individual tile, then by hitting CTRL+R > you can refresh that specific tile to ensure you are viewing the > most up to date version that the This used to work last week, and it seems to work again today, but yesterday I couldn't get the tiles to be redrawn at all. When I reloaded them, the same old cached tile was returned. But still, all through this last week, it is really rare that any streets at all are drawn in view mode. A more reliable method is to open the edit applet, where the streets are more likely to show up. As compensation, the applet rarely shows any yellow marks. Are the yellow marks (dots, now crosses) served through the tile server? If so, it is at the center of the current problems. Does the tile server save a log file, from where we can learn how often it fails to render the streets or yellow markers? I guess the failure rate is higher than 50% in the last week, and this is disasterous. For example, go to http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=58.14&lon=15.68&zoom=14 and see very few streets drawn, no matter how you reload. Click on "edit" and you see more streets. But in the very center (to the northwest of the roundabout) there is an area of yellow marks that should be drawn as streets (a parking lot). Change to zoom=15 or zoom=16 and see how the yellow markers are no longer rendered! And how do you reload tiles in the edit applet? -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From waban_star at yahoo.com Fri Feb 10 18:45:19 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Editing, liscence, ownership, etc. Message-ID: <20060210184519.11223.qmail@web36605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From my editing perspective I would add; If some one is making maps off data I provide and a significant profits are realised, If I was paid and edited full time, you get much more high quality data as I could perhaps persue data collection and entry as a vocation. As an 'owner' of my data in the sense of profits driving data dev. I would be incentizised to maintain an integrated and complete data set in whatever region I covered. (to be agreed on) Kind of sound greedy, but provides a dev. model. You could still accept donated 'free' data as well. depends on the amount of data you want, how fast, and what quality. wabanstar PS: higher quality drives commercial interest 'donation', which in turn drives equipment, coding, administration, etc. Kind of like the market model, except producers get paid and investors don't. Less middlemen. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lars at aronsson.se Fri Feb 10 21:44:31 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Editing, liscence, ownership, etc. In-Reply-To: <20060210184519.11223.qmail@web36605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060210184519.11223.qmail@web36605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: wabanstar wrote: > If I was paid and > edited full time, you get much more high quality data Nothing should stop you from pursuing a carreer in GIS consulting. You could purchase data from the national Ordnance Survey, improve it in some way, and then resell it (with a kickback to the O.S., and strict copyright and licenses). Everybody who works for it gets paid, all who use it have to pay, and those who don't pay don't get any part of it. But how is this related to OSM? It's the situation we had before OSM. It's the old Microsoft way, not the new Linux way. > Kind of like the market model, except producers get > paid and investors don't. Less middlemen. That's what any independent consulting business is about. There is no need for capital investment in heavy machinery, just bring your brain, and rent it per the hour. I'm sure that many OSM contributors make their living this way already. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From pere at hungry.com Fri Feb 10 19:19:52 2006 From: pere at hungry.com (Petter Reinholdtsen) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: update References: <2flr76be2ga.fsf@saruman.uio.no> Message-ID: <2fld5hvm36v.fsf@saruman.uio.no> [Andy Robinson] > Spin-off Products: I think this is probably the best way to raise > funds, especially in the short term, however if OSM simply does what > others can do with free OSM data then why would they necessarily buy > from OSM, especially if an unconnected commercial venture has the > capital available to develop a better output product than OSM > can. Would we not want to protect this potential revenue stream in > some way? Do not underestimate the people buying spin-off products from OSM. The whole point is to make it known that bying from OSM supports OSM, and I am sure a lot of people would want to support OSM in this way. I'm not very worried about independent products, because the people buying spin-off products will want to buy to support OSM. > Free and paid for services: If you mean ultimately a Google-ish like > model of a basic free map and with premium services then would OSM > be any different than Google say in what it actually offers. I do not mean something google-ish. I mean that we could provide the OSM data in for free one format, and offer paid services to help those in need to use these data. For example provide the raw data in XML format, and sell shape files or something. :) From waban_star at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 16:45:11 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] JOSM Message-ID: <20060211164512.80655.qmail@web36608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Latest build still not saved, server not understanding concept of tracks. My argument for paid data entry was simply that If I upload all my data for free it conflicts with my ability to be paid for that data in my private possession. If it can be had for free as in beer on OSM my private data looses commercial value. I can add some interstates and a few towns for free, but otherwise I might hold back the whole region, provenance, etc. There was an argument for paid staff previously that no one objected too (yet). I agree that the data OSM distributes should be free but as you know providing at what ever level has costs and commercial developers will realise large savings and profits by using that data. I'm no consultant-freelancer, unfortunately. wabanstar. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From f_mohr at yahoo.de Sat Feb 11 20:55:48 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] JOSM and Licence Discussion once again In-Reply-To: <20060211164512.80655.qmail@web36608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060211164512.80655.qmail@web36608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43EE4F54.8040008@yahoo.de> wabanstar wrote: > Latest build still not saved, server not understanding > concept of tracks. that doesn't mean the data isn't on the server. tracks are uploaded as nodes/lines, but not grouped as tracks > My argument for paid data entry was > simply that If I upload all my data for free it > conflicts with my ability to be paid for that data in > my private possession. so don't upload data you'd like to be payed for. > There was an argument for paid staff > previously that no one objected too (yet). i didn't have time to object. if OSM gets into a commercial project (of any kind), i had to decide between my daytime job and contributing to OSM. my daytime job would win. > I agree that the data OSM distributes should be free > but as you know providing at what ever level has costs > and commercial developers will realise large savings > and profits by using that data. they do, but also "normal" people will have a benefit of it. frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Sun Feb 12 11:16:51 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] JOSM (without Licence Discussion) In-Reply-To: <43EE4F54.8040008@yahoo.de> References: <20060211164512.80655.qmail@web36608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43EE4F54.8040008@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <1281.62.158.85.25.1139743011.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> > wabanstar wrote: >> Latest build still not saved, server not understanding >> concept of tracks. > > that doesn't mean the data isn't on the server. > tracks are uploaded as nodes/lines, but not > grouped as tracks No! "Track" is the josm name for "The thing that is not implemented yet in OSM and will be either named 'track', 'line' or 'street'". The server does not support tracks (streets, lines, whatever) yet. JOSM does. This means, that tracks are saved to disk but not uploaded to OSM server. JOSM displays a warning about this when trying to upload things with tracks in it. So you have to be patient and wait for the server stuff to get implemented, then JOSM will enable the track uploading. However, all your tracks are saved when you save to disk (e.g. using .osm as extension for the osm-intern xml format). Ciao, Imi. From arnulf.christl at ccgis.de Mon Feb 13 14:25:27 2006 From: arnulf.christl at ccgis.de (Arnulf Christl) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [geo-discuss] Another license for geodata: PGL (Public Geodata License) In-Reply-To: <43F09258.3050308@camptocamp.com> References: <43F09258.3050308@camptocamp.com> Message-ID: <43F096D7.9080202@ccgis.de> Hi, you might want to have a look into this regarding licensing issues. Sorry if it arrives here doubled and crossed. Daniel wrote: > Hello, > > I would like to inform you about another initiative for a public geodata > license: please take a look at > > * http://sig.cwriter.org/index.php/PGL (first release and cooperative > writing of the license) > * http://cemml.carleton.ca:8080/OGUG/pgl (group PGL-Canada) > > Despite I was at the origin of the PGL initiative, I really appreciate > the existence of another initiative. Regarding to your work, I think > there's in fact needs for two kinds of licenses: > > 1) one to re-iterate for geodata the success of GPL for software : the > PGL should apply. To me, it seems particularly accurate for "massive > cooperative GIS", like OpenStreetMaps, UPCT (upct.org), ... > > 2) one to help public authorities to release public-funded geodata : a > creative common's derived work should be the right response. It fit best > public releases of "official geodata", as it is a "nc / (n?)d creative > common". > > I will really appreciate any feedback upon these points. > > Yours, > > Daniel FAIVRE > > _______________________________________________ > geo-discuss mailing list > geo-discuss@lists.okfn.org > http://lists.okfn.org/mailman/listinfo/geo-discuss From waban_star at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 16:58:12 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks Message-ID: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the various feedback, they have been very helpfull. JOSM a good tool, a suggestion that would be helpfull to me is that when selecting the rectangle to down load the map is so small the area I want is smaller that the pointer and it is hard to get just the area of interest. wabanstar --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060213/46b5ee25/attachment.html From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Mon Feb 13 21:23:43 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > when selecting the rectangle to down load the map is so small the area I > want is smaller that the pointer and it is hard to get just the area of > interest. Uhm, and what is your suggestion? ;-) First, the world in the download menu is usually not a good way to select your area of interest (although possible), except if you want to download, say... whole australia ;-). Note that currently the server will have a hard time to deliver whole europe (australia is ok, only about 20 points and some lines ;). But in future, this may be possible and you will get a very low detailed map data only containing the biggest streets. (The original idea of this little map is to give you a roughly feedback, where your entered coordinates are.) And second.. you DID know, that you can zoom the world map with mouse scroll wheel and move it using right mouse button like the standard map? ;-) Ciao, Imi. From g.hamwall at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 22:03:39 2006 From: g.hamwall at gmail.com (Graham Wall) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: On 13/02/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > And second.. you DID know, that you can zoom the world map with mouse > scroll wheel and move it using right mouse button like the standard map? > ;-) > > > Ciao, Imi. Would it be possible to add a key sequence for that too? Not evyerone has a mouse wheel. I'm on a mouseless laptop a lot of the time. Graham From thomas at walraet.com Mon Feb 13 22:52:49 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <43F10DC1.8040602@walraet.com> Immanuel Scholz a ?crit : > > And second.. you DID know, that you can zoom the world map with mouse > scroll wheel and move it using right mouse button like the standard map? > ;-) You should really tell this in a tooltip, or add buttons to zoom/move the map. I never try mouse wheel or right-clic on what seems to be a static image... From reviews at pacific-rim.net Tue Feb 14 01:29:55 2006 From: reviews at pacific-rim.net (David Groom) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> Firstly let me get in my apologies and disclaimer, lest I cause offence. I have no technical expertise whatsoever, and am in awe of all of the individuals involved in the development of the OpenStreetMap project. It's late in the evening and I may be appear blunter than I mean to be. You all have my greatest respect. I can't now remember how I first came across the project, but I remember being attracted by two things: 1 - the stated aims " OpenStreetMap is a project aimed squarely at creating and providing free geographic data such as street maps to anyone who wants them. This is because most maps you might think of as free actually have legal or technical restrictions on their use, holding back people from all walks of life who would like to use a map for one reason or another." 2- the technical aspect of being able to upload GPS tracks and seeing these transferred into lines on screen. As a consequence I went out and brought a GPS, and have been uploading a few tracks to OSM, and then editing them via the online editor. Most of the discussions on this mailing list seem to revolve around bugs, wish lists etc, and perhaps that is to be expected from the state of development that the project is in. That is to say they are mostly geared around discussions of those of us uploading data and editing it in one way or another. There seems very little in the way of what the goal of the project is. I realise that until there is a useable amount of data in the project that talking about its use may seem premature, but I do think its a good idea to continually review what is trying to be achieved. To that end is the project: i - something to demonstrate the technical ability of the contributors, or ii - something of use to the wider community. If the answer is something of use to the wider community then that prompts a number of questions: 1 - how are the wider community to use the data that is in the project. It seems to me that at present there is very little, other than grabbing a screenshot, that it is possible to do with the data, especially if you consider that most people want to be spoon fed information. 2 - is there a value to what the project is providing. The answer would seem to be yes, and as such maybe it is not unrealistic to expect some contribution from the users of the data. In an ideal world this would not be necessary, but even if we ignore the value of all the technical expertise in the project it has become clear that the provision of an IT infrastructure capable of supporting the limited number of users at present, let alone what might be necessary if the project really takes off, is not without costs. With the best will in the world I do not see donations from those of us contributing to the data as being a way forward. Neither do I see the selling of prints or other paper based maps being anything other than a minor source of income. To this end I believe that even if the basic data remains free there needs to be a way of charging for something. I work as a web designer, and it is surprising how many web sites either require, or could be improved by, a map. At present in the UK we are limited to offerings from the Ordnance Survey, Multimap, or Streetmap, all of which either require you to link to a page full of extraneous data and links, or require a substantial fee. What would really be nice would be a simple image of the relevant area that could be downloaded, maybe with a choice of background colour, that I could then annotate as I required with no licensing restrictions. I'd willing pay at least ?10 for that. Multiply that ?10 by the number of people in a similar position to me and you start to pay for your IT infrastructure. To sum up: give me something I can use; and ask me to pay someting towards it. David From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Tue Feb 14 08:25:03 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture Message-ID: >I work as a web designer, and it is surprising how many web sites either >require, or could be improved by, a map. At present in the UK we are >limited to offerings from the Ordnance Survey, Multimap, or Streetmap, all >of which either require you to link to a page full of extraneous data and >links, or require a substantial fee. What would really be nice would be a >simple image of the relevant area that could be downloaded, maybe with a >choice of background colour, that I could then annotate as I required with >no licensing restrictions. I'd willing pay at least ?10 for that. Multiply >that ?10 by the number of people in a similar position to me and you start >to pay for your IT infrastructure. Just speaking for myself, and no-one else: One of my goals with the countryside mapping site Freemap (free-map.org.uk), which now uses OSM data, was to allow web sites to display mapping information for free. My current aims for Freemap include features such as annotation, as you say, making use of technology such as AJAX and Canvas or SVG in Firefox 1.5. However for free is the crucial condition. If the use of Freemap maps was charged-for, it would be no different from any of the commercial mapping sites. Nick _______________________________________________ Openstreetmap mailing list Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Tue Feb 14 08:31:27 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture Message-ID: >However for free is the crucial condition. If the use of Freemap maps was >charged-for, it would be no different from any of the commercial mapping >sites. Sorry, just noticed your "no licencing restrictions" condition. That would be better than the other sites, but even still, my own personal opinion would be for it to remain completely free. >From a commercial perspective, a charged-for facility such as what you describe would always have the possibility of free competitors so would it make any money? Nick Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 09:01:41 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, >> And second.. you DID know, that you can zoom the world map with mouse >> scroll wheel and move it using right mouse button like the standard map? >> ;-) > > Would it be possible to add a key sequence for that too? Not evyerone > has a mouse wheel. I'm on a mouseless laptop a lot of the time. The need of support of a wheelless mouse is recorded and will be implemented soon (but not in Release 1.1 (which will come very shortly)). However, I don't think I should go any futher with supporting environments with fewer hardware. As example I don't want to support mouseless environments or mouses with only one mouse button (e.g. touchscreens). Remember that JOSM is designed for the power user sitting at home postprocessing his data, not for the guy currently walking around and grabbing his gps device directly ;-) Ciao, Imi. From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Tue Feb 14 10:12:43 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Tracks for ski resorts Message-ID: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> Folks I have a personal interest in mapping lifts and pistes in ski resorts. This originated way back when I noticed that piste maps are generally terrible. I'd like to start marking up some pistes on OSM. Can I ask that anyone who will be heading out to the Alps (or the Rockies, or anywhere else) consider taking their GPS with them please. It would be good to have any and all tracks both from pistes and from lifts. (off-piste tracks are probably not very useful unless its a well established route). If you upload any tracks please let me know - I'd be more than willing to join up the dots if you don't want to. Many thanks Etienne From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 10:20:48 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: Hi Imi, > However, I don't think I should go any futher with supporting > environments > with fewer hardware. As example I don't want to support mouseless > environments or mouses with only one mouse button (e.g. touchscreens). > Remember that JOSM is designed for the power user sitting at home > postprocessing his data Could I ask you to reconsider on the 'one mouse button' angle? Some of us power users have Macs! Richard From simon at rumble.net Tue Feb 14 10:24:14 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Tracks for ski resorts In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14/2/2006, "Etienne Cherdlu" wrote: >I'd like to start marking up some pistes on OSM. Can I ask that >anyone who will be heading out to the Alps (or the Rockies, or >anywhere else) consider taking their GPS with them please. Bugger. Just got back from a week's skiing and could have taken my gps out... Wouldn't have done you much good though, as I lost my phone during that week :( From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 10:36:18 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Macintosh's mouses (was: Thanks) In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <19882.80.246.32.40.1139913378.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > Could I ask you to reconsider on the 'one mouse button' angle? Some of > us power users have Macs! I thought even Macintosh now ships mouses with two mouse buttons? How do macintosh user uses applications with actions on two mouse button currently? Are there some kind of mapping the right button of Intel-Mouses to some key+mouse click on mac? Of course, I don't want to exclude mac users. But I am one of these arrogant, stubborn people who believe software which uses fewer than 5 different mouse button modes (real buttons plus modifiers with keys) aren't complex enough to be considered "cool"! ;-) Ciao, Imi. From g.hamwall at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 10:38:33 2006 From: g.hamwall at gmail.com (Graham Wall) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: On 14/02/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > > Would it be possible to add a key sequence for that too? Not evyerone > > has a mouse wheel. I'm on a mouseless laptop a lot of the time. > > However, I don't think I should go any futher with supporting environments > with fewer hardware. As example I don't want to support mouseless > environments or mouses with only one mouse button (e.g. touchscreens). > Remember that JOSM is designed for the power user sitting at home > postprocessing his data, not for the guy currently walking around and > grabbing his gps device directly ;-) > I wasn't clear. I meant, I don't have a mouse attached to the laptop, but I do have a pointing device, but without a wheel and only two buttons. This is probably fairly common I'd have thought. From thomas at walraet.com Tue Feb 14 10:43:33 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <43F1B455.7030300@walraet.com> Richard Fairhurst a ?crit : > >> However, I don't think I should go any futher with supporting >> environments >> with fewer hardware. As example I don't want to support mouseless >> environments or mouses with only one mouse button (e.g. touchscreens). >> Remember that JOSM is designed for the power user sitting at home >> postprocessing his data > > Could I ask you to reconsider on the 'one mouse button' angle? Some of > us power users have Macs! I didn't look how JOSM was handling right-clic, but a good thing to do is to use "MouseEvent.isPopupTrigger()" instead of "MouseEvent.getButton() == MouseEvent.BUTTON2" This way, you react on right-clic on Windows/most unixes, pomme-clic on Mac. Now, in my opinion, right-clic should not be used to anything else than context menu. From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 10:43:17 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Macintosh's mouses (was: Thanks) In-Reply-To: <19882.80.246.32.40.1139913378.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <19882.80.246.32.40.1139913378.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <85897f2528d17740f8ccf04be1102b5b@systemeD.net> On 14 Feb 2006, at 10:36, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > I thought even Macintosh now ships mouses with two mouse buttons? The latest desktop ones do, yes. But most "old" Macs (and mine's a 2004 model, so not that old) still only have the one-button one, and of course, the trackpad on the portables is also one-button only. > How do macintosh user uses applications with actions on two mouse > button > currently? Are there some kind of mapping the right button of > Intel-Mouses > to some key+mouse click on mac? By and large, Mac apps are written to only require use of one button. If you want the contextual menu which is often found in Windows, you hold ctrl and click. > Of course, I don't want to exclude mac users. But I am one of these > arrogant, stubborn people who believe software which uses fewer than 5 > different mouse button modes (real buttons plus modifiers with keys) > aren't complex enough to be considered "cool"! ;-) Ah, we like "modeless" here in the Mac world. ;) cheers Richard From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 10:49:16 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Tracks for ski resorts In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <24307.80.246.32.40.1139914156.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > I have a personal interest in mapping lifts and pistes in ski resorts. > This originated way back when I noticed that piste maps are generally > terrible. My brother and me are going a trip to the "Hintertuxer Gletscher" in the alps next week. Both of us have GPS... :-] *whisper* But to say the truth: His tracklogs will worth nothing, because *even more whisper*he's a BOARDER (Snowboarder)! MUAHAHAHAHA!!! And as you all know "no offroad tracking" isn't really an option for these boarders... ;-) > If you upload any tracks please let me know - I'd be more than willing > to join up the dots if you don't want to. I have concern whether this belongs to the Open"Street"Map server... Please, can you at least tag all your data uploaded with some key/value as example "type=ski" or better? While currently this will have no impact on the applet editor, in future they can differntiate the data from real street data (as was the original plan to store at the osm server). Even if we decide later, that all different data types goes to different servers (all talking the osm protocol), this would simplify the seperation process much. (Unfortunatly, user defined key/value pairs are currently not implemented in the online applet editor.., right? But you could use JOSM to retag all data after upload easy. ;-) Ciao, Imi From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 10:55:10 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <43F1B455.7030300@walraet.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <43F1B455.7030300@walraet.com> Message-ID: <35018.80.246.32.40.1139914510.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > I didn't look how JOSM was handling right-clic, but a good thing to do > is to use "MouseEvent.isPopupTrigger()" instead of > "MouseEvent.getButton() == MouseEvent.BUTTON2" If I would open a popup menu, I would have used this ;-) But right mouse button is used to scroll the map. > Now, in my opinion, right-clic should not be used to anything else than > context menu. I'll think about this (since I planed to include a context menu anyway which conflicts with the current right mouse button scheme). Maybe I'll let the user scroll via cursor direction keys and via middle mouse button (like GIMP). So users with three mouse buttons can as quick move around as now and users of macs can move too ;-). I'll think about this mouse button stuff and all. Thank you all for the good feedback. THAT is what a lonely coder like me needs to not get detached from the real world :-) Ciao, Imi. From f_mohr at yahoo.de Tue Feb 14 11:22:12 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Tracks for ski resorts In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43F1BD64.30205@yahoo.de> Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > Folks > I have a personal interest in mapping lifts and pistes in ski resorts. > This originated way back when I noticed that piste maps are generally > terrible. > > I'd like to start marking up some pistes on OSM. Can I ask that > anyone who will be heading out to the Alps (or the Rockies, or > anywhere else) consider taking their GPS with them please. > > It would be good to have any and all tracks both from pistes and from > lifts. (off-piste tracks are probably not very useful unless its a > well established route). > > If you upload any tracks please let me know - I'd be more than willing > to join up the dots if you don't want to. just a pointer to the wiki where this had been discussed a few days ago. http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/Talk:Labels i uploaded one piste and a lift in 46.994/8.783 47.015/8.801 frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From f_mohr at yahoo.de Tue Feb 14 11:37:55 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Thanks In-Reply-To: <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1678.62.158.71.244.1139865823.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <40706.80.246.32.40.1139907701.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <43F1C113.7040103@yahoo.de> Immanuel Scholz wrote: > Hi, > > > >>>And second.. you DID know, that you can zoom the world map with mouse >>>scroll wheel and move it using right mouse button like the standard map? >>>;-) >> >>Would it be possible to add a key sequence for that too? Not evyerone >>has a mouse wheel. I'm on a mouseless laptop a lot of the time. > > > The need of support of a wheelless mouse is recorded and will be > implemented soon (but not in Release 1.1 (which will come very shortly)). > > However, I don't think I should go any futher with supporting environments > with fewer hardware. As example I don't want to support mouseless > environments or mouses with only one mouse button (e.g. touchscreens). > Remember that JOSM is designed for the power user sitting at home > postprocessing his data, not for the guy currently walking around and > grabbing his gps device directly ;-) speaking of fewer hardware .. there is one inconvenience with josm on my subnotebook. the upload window usually gets bigger than the 800x600 display and has to be moved up to see the "OK" button. a configurable number of lines for added/modified/deleted element lists would be nice in this case. (nice to have, but low prio on the wish list) frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From thomas at walraet.com Tue Feb 14 11:43:15 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Tracks for ski resorts In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602140212k5322121ah3e284c17fba165cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43F1C253.7080902@walraet.com> Etienne Cherdlu a ?crit : > > I'd like to start marking up some pistes on OSM. Can I ask that > anyone who will be heading out to the Alps (or the Rockies, or > anywhere else) consider taking their GPS with them please. I have tracks for one day of nordic-ski (French Jura) and 5 days of surfing at Serre-Chevalier (French Alp) I have not uploaded/traced those track on OSM yet, because I was wondering if it's something that OSM should hold... Notes: - I think we could had slopes on OSM, but it had to be added by someone who know the station very well to avoid offroad - For lift/slope tagging, it will be _very_ usefull to find a way to show altitude info in editors - We should have "completion per skiing station" on the Wiki :) From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 11:55:33 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, David Groom wrote: > I work as a web designer, and it is surprising how many web sites either > require, or could be improved by, a map. At present in the UK we are > limited to offerings from the Ordnance Survey, Multimap, or Streetmap, all > of which either require you to link to a page full of extraneous data and > links, or require a substantial fee. What would really be nice would be a > simple image of the relevant area that could be downloaded, maybe with a > choice of background colour, that I could then annotate as I required with > no licensing restrictions. I'd willing pay at least ?10 for that. Multiply > that ?10 by the number of people in a similar position to me and you start > to pay for your IT infrastructure. > You're absolutely on the button with this one. It's fair to say that a lot of the maps on UK websites are routinely stolen (sorry, *infringed*) from the Ordnance Survey. One thing I'd like to see OSM become is a resource that designers could routinely use to source maps (and contribute back where possible) without having to do that. Your suggestion is a good one, and shouldn't be tough to implement. The question is - how reliable/complete does the data need to be before it's worth enabling such a feature? What metrics could we provide (300 people edited this region in the last year, it has been viewed 20 times today, etc. etc.) that would allow people to judge whether the map was likely to be accurate or not? Could the ?10 you suggest be split between OpenStreetMap and a commercial satellite/aerial photography company perhaps, with the latter providing pay-for access to imagery that would allow you to sanity-check the OSM data? > To sum up: > > give me something I can use; and > ask me to pay someting towards it. > Absolutely. I'd also like to make it as easy as possible for your use of OSM resources to feed back into the dataset and enrich it in some way. For example, you're putting on a music festival in your home town and want a map with all the venues on. It would be *fantastic* if OSM could support the creation of the entire raw data set, leaving only the look and feel for the event to the designer. Some of us are already looking into exporting to SVG or other formats which can be manipulated by professional graphics packages. One thing I suggested a while back was to open up this facility to everyone, but limit it to once a month (for example) and offer a reasonably priced 'commercial support' package with unlimited export to vector formats. Something like that. Note that I'm not talking about restricting access to the API, although that again is something that could be a pay-for service for commercial use. Basically, so long as people are always entitled to access OSM's raw data for their own personal use, I think there are a bunch of ways that commercial/for-profit uses of OSM could be supported/enabled *and* support the hosting costs or even employ a couple of people to run OSM full time. You've suggested one use-case for OSM maps (and we've already seen flight-sims, and Lars would like to have OSM-pwoered satellite navigation, etc.) - what other use cases are there, and how quickly could they be supported, assuming the data was there? I would *love* to see a Google/Yahoo style Maps API for people to embed an interactive OpenStreetMap on their website. How about you? Best, Tom. From barry at barryhunter.co.uk Tue Feb 14 12:33:52 2006 From: barry at barryhunter.co.uk (Barry Hunter) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] recording heights? Message-ID: <00f901c63162$ef0cd730$0200a8c0@Xyanda> I haven't seen any mention of it anywhere, but does openstreetmap.org make any attempt to record heights? Most of the tracklogs uploaded probably have a height component, but am I right this doesn't really make it into the main database? This would be a great opportunity for creating a DEM from the data, even given the low quality of height readings on a GPS device. Or is the focus just to merge the mapping data with already available DEM's (such as STRM on free-map.org.uk)? Thanks, Barry Hunter From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 12:44:20 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] recording heights? In-Reply-To: <00f901c63162$ef0cd730$0200a8c0@Xyanda> References: <00f901c63162$ef0cd730$0200a8c0@Xyanda> Message-ID: <46959.80.246.32.40.1139921060.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> > I haven't seen any mention of it anywhere, but does openstreetmap.org make > any attempt to record heights? > > Most of the tracklogs uploaded probably have a height component, but am I > right this doesn't really make it into the main database? > > This would be a great opportunity for creating a DEM from the data, even > given the low quality of height readings on a GPS device. Uhm, as I already said some hours ago in the list, my opinion is, that only those heights should be uploaded, which are not the "earth surface" height. As example a bridge, a tower, sightseeing, location of a WLAN hotspot (if it is in the 15'th floor of a building ;) or something like that. Just upload bulk height information seem not to be necessary for me. > Or is the focus just to merge the mapping data with already available > DEM's (such as STRM on free-map.org.uk)? Exact this. The earth height are stored in big databases. Clients that visualize this can grab the information from there. No need to have this in Open"Street"Map. However, just my opinion. I have no problem with people uploading height values for every point.. I just don't think it is THAT usefull.. Ciao, Imi. From steve at asklater.com Tue Feb 14 13:09:00 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] recording heights? In-Reply-To: <00f901c63162$ef0cd730$0200a8c0@Xyanda> References: <00f901c63162$ef0cd730$0200a8c0@Xyanda> Message-ID: <20060214130900.GI31683@asklater.com> * @ 14/02/06 12:33:52 PM barry@barryhunter.co.uk wrote: > I haven't seen any mention of it anywhere, but does openstreetmap.org make > any attempt to record heights? > > Most of the tracklogs uploaded probably have a height component, but am I > right this doesn't really make it into the main database? Put your GPS outside and record 'static' data for 24 hours. Now look at the error bars on the height compared to lat/lon. It's approximately useless data. > This would be a great opportunity for creating a DEM from the data, even > given the low quality of height readings on a GPS device. > > Or is the focus just to merge the mapping data with already available DEM's > (such as STRM on free-map.org.uk)? The SRTM data is far more useful :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From streetmap at blibbleblobble.co.uk Tue Feb 14 13:10:18 2006 From: streetmap at blibbleblobble.co.uk (Oliver White) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602141310.19124.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> Perhaps if somebody were to sell the OSM data on ebay as a CD, it would help in the case of other websites who need large amounts of data. OSM would benefit by reduced load on its servers (no need for bulk consumers of map data to use the web interface) and potentially with some money for selling the CD. The consumers (websites etc.) would save on their own bandwidth, and get a complete set of data without having to query openstreetmap.org for it. That would leave openstreetmap.org needing only to support active users (i.e. people contributing data to it), people viewing data for personal use, and people getting small enough sections of data that it's not worth buying the CD for. The benefit of CC-BY-SA in all this of course, is that anyone who buys the data can redistribute it (on their websites, on ebay, on bittorrent, etc.) further reducing the bandwidth (and support) burden on everyone. ? OJW From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 14 13:46:39 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tom Carden wrote: > Could the ?10 you suggest be split between OpenStreetMap and a > commercial satellite/aerial photography company perhaps, with > the latter providing pay-for access to imagery that would allow > you to sanity-check the OSM data? > [...] > Note that I'm not talking about restricting access to the API, > although that again is something that could be a pay-for service > for commercial use. Basically, so long as people are always > entitled to access OSM's raw data for their own personal use, This whole discussion is a provocation! Unless the list owner makes it clear that this line of thinking is impossible, I'm on my way out of here. Some people obviously want to build a new Ordnance Survey, and if there is any risk that OSM is going to be *their* platform, then I want to make sure that I didn't contribute to their effort. When I spent this summer, fall, and winter drawing maps for OSM it was my intention that these maps should be available for all, for free, for ever, for any purpose (commercial or not), under the CC-SA license. If OSM is going to become the kind of proprietary map publisher that Tom suggests, it can under no circumstances claim any rights to the maps I made. You are free to charge for the map data, the same way that Red Hat and SuSE charge for Linux, but you are not free to restrict people to use and share the data for free. You cannot even dual license the data (the MySQL way), because you don't own the copyright in the first place. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From steve at asklater.com Tue Feb 14 13:58:01 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> * @ 14/02/06 01:46:39 PM lars@aronsson.se wrote: > Tom Carden wrote: > > > Could the ?10 you suggest be split between OpenStreetMap and a > > commercial satellite/aerial photography company perhaps, with > > the latter providing pay-for access to imagery that would allow > > you to sanity-check the OSM data? > > [...] > > Note that I'm not talking about restricting access to the API, > > although that again is something that could be a pay-for service > > for commercial use. Basically, so long as people are always > > entitled to access OSM's raw data for their own personal use, > > This whole discussion is a provocation! Unless the list owner > makes it clear that this line of thinking is impossible, I'm on my No line of thinking is unpossible, but no, OSM will never be a CDDB and just close off access or change the license on exising data. > way out of here. Some people obviously want to build a new > Ordnance Survey, and if there is any risk that OSM is going to be > *their* platform, then I want to make sure that I didn't > contribute to their effort. No, but we _do_ need to find a way to pay for computers. Any ideas? > When I spent this summer, fall, and winter drawing maps for OSM it > was my intention that these maps should be available for all, for > free, for ever, for any purpose (commercial or not), under the > CC-SA license. If OSM is going to become the kind of proprietary > map publisher that Tom suggests, it can under no circumstances > claim any rights to the maps I made. You are free to charge for > the map data, the same way that Red Hat and SuSE charge for Linux, > but you are not free to restrict people to use and share the data > for free. You cannot even dual license the data (the MySQL way), > because you don't own the copyright in the first place. I know. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 14:17:27 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > When I spent this summer, fall, and winter drawing maps for OSM it > was my intention that these maps should be available for all, for > free, for ever, for any purpose (commercial or not), under the > CC-SA license. The original discussion was about changing the license for OSM. If any contributor does not accept a license change (as example you and me) the license change is rejected. Simple that. :) Remember, that it is problematic if someone want to ask only some of the contributors for their acceptance of any other license, extract their contributions only and publish this data without the other contributor's data. This is because he has to make sure, that the contributions he uses are free of any "derived" work from people who don't accept the new license. This may be possible only in a regional area of the data base. > You are free to charge for the map data, the same way that Red Hat and > SuSE charge for Linux, but you are not free to restrict people to use and > share the data for free. I think that is the thing Tom and the others spoke of. Since your map data is released under CC-SA, any map provider can use this data and sell it. Anybody may take the whole database and provide a restricted, paid-only access to the data (which may, as example be powered by very good hardware and so be very quick compared to the current server). But what neither Tom nor anybody can do is take the data and republish it under anything else than CC-SA without permission of anybody who has contributed. I am very confident, that if the current OSM server would only allow some commercial access, an other server mirror with free access would be set up in no time ;-) Ciao, Imi. From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 14:21:00 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting SteveC : > No, but we _do_ need to find a way to pay for computers. Any ideas? Two thoughts: 1. Real saleable product produced using OSM, rather than the core data itself. For the UK, there are two that spring to mind: an equivalent to OS Miniscale (http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/products/miniscale/) and a Central London streetmap. Ship them on CD in mass-market formats (e.g. JPEG and Illustrator). Ideally, get a deal for a distributor to do this for us. The catch: to be useful, this would probably need us to retreat from pure ShareAlike. My understanding of what ShareAlike means to us is this: "if you're using OSM geodata together with another dataset, that dataset needs to be free". That's not a problem here. But CC-SA, as it stands, could be read as "if you're producing a custom artistic product using OSM geodata and nothing else, that product also has to be free". That pretty much puts paid to supporting OSM this way. It all hinges on what "derivative work" means. Lars - you're the one with the strongest opinions on this. Would you have a problem with ShareAlike that allowed non-shared products, while still requiring _geodata_ to be contributed back to OSM? 2. Relicence OSM as "free for non-commercial use only for organisations with under ?xx,xxx of mapping-related turnover". In other words, everyone gets to use OSM data for free except the big guys (whether they be TeleAtlas, Navteq, OS, Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, whoever), who have to negotiate with us to fund the project. cheers Richard From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 14:21:45 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140621v5b5e1f7dj51d5a356720a6a70@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > Tom Carden wrote: > > > Could the ?10 you suggest be split between OpenStreetMap and a > > commercial satellite/aerial photography company perhaps, with > > the latter providing pay-for access to imagery that would allow > > you to sanity-check the OSM data? > > [...] > > Note that I'm not talking about restricting access to the API, > > although that again is something that could be a pay-for service > > for commercial use. Basically, so long as people are always > > entitled to access OSM's raw data for their own personal use, > > This whole discussion is a provocation! Not really. > Unless the list owner > makes it clear that this line of thinking is impossible, > I'm on my way out of here. That would be silly. Nobody wants to take anything away from anybody. We're not "doing a CDDB", for sure. > Some people obviously want to build a new > Ordnance Survey, and if there is any risk that OSM is going to be > *their* platform, then I want to make sure that I didn't > contribute to their effort. > I think that being a "new Ordnace Survey" is a pointless, thankless, uphill task and I'm not interested in re-inventing that wheel in the slightest. There is a bunch of stuff that will always make an OpenStreetMap collaborative/bottom-up approach fundamentally different to the traditional approach and that's why I'm here. I want peer-produced Free-as-in-Freedom maps, maps I can download, edit, sell, give to my friends, and post on my website. > When I spent this summer, fall, and winter drawing maps for OSM it > was my intention that these maps should be available for all, for > free, for ever, for any purpose (commercial or not), under the > CC-SA license. Absolutely, and we can't change that now. All work submitted to OpenStreetMap to-date, if it's redistributed at all, has to be redistributed under that license. But here comes my point *if it's redistributed at all*. As far as I know none of us is obliged to make it available forever, on demand. The things I'm talking about are ideas to make OpenStreetMap sustainable. I'm suggesting premium accounts which allow people more hits, more bandwidth, extra features - above and beyond what the project is obliged to provide - in order to cover costs of hosting and maintenance. > If OSM is going to become the kind of proprietary > map publisher that Tom suggests, it can under no circumstances > claim any rights to the maps I made. Playing devil's advocate here, I'm not sure about that. The current license linked from the front page states: "You are free: to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work to make derivative works to make commercial use of the work" "The work" I take to mean the maps as distributed through the slippy tiles interface. I hardly think the licensing situation is as water-tight as is made out, and I don't think OSM does much to maintain the licensing for users of its API - there is no privacy policy, terms and conditions, user agreement. It's a free for all. There are lots of things that need patching up if it's going to work like you suggest. That said, your interpretation is absolutely in the spirit of OSM as I understand it, and how it's currently run. > You are free to charge for > the map data, the same way that Red Hat and SuSE charge for Linux, > but you are not free to restrict people to use and share the data > for free. So what is the difference here? I'm not talking about charging for the map data, I'm talking about charging for services which use the map data, or services which provide access to the map data in a specific format. And I was only talking about ways in which we might satisfy people who are accustomed for paying for such things. In the same email I also suggested a bunch of things which I think should be free as in beer. > You cannot even dual license the data (the MySQL way), > because you don't own the copyright in the first place. > I think this needs clarification. In my opinion OSM *should* own the data, it makes distribution and attribution in particular a lot clearer. I'm overlapping with Steve and Imi's responses now, so I'll pick up their points further down. T. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 14:26:11 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > But CC-SA, as it stands, could be read as "if you're producing a custom > artistic > product using OSM geodata and nothing else, that product also has to be free". > That pretty much puts paid to supporting OSM this way. > I don't think that's what CC-SA means. I think it means that I can sell things if I want to, so long as *reuse* is permitted as it was for the original dataset. In other words, if I produce a derivative of a CC-SA licensed work, I am obliged to distribute my work under that same license. Doesn't stop me selling it, it just means I have to let other people produce derivatives of my work. Tom. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 14:29:58 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > > The original discussion was about changing the license for OSM. If any > contributor does not accept a license change (as example you and me) the > license change is rejected. Simple that. :) > Not necessarily ;) One alternative would be to reject the contributions of the person who objects, rather than to reject the license they object to. But I don't think that's what we're talking about. > > I am very confident, that if the current OSM server would only allow some > commercial access, an other server mirror with free access would be set up > in no time ;-) > But what if the commercial access I'm talking about is to *services* and *features* independent of the data? Like a proprietary piece of code which produces nicely formatted maps, for example? The data can go elsewhere, you're right, but that's not what I'm talking about. Tom. From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 14:40:15 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Tom Carden : > I don't think that's what CC-SA means. I think it means that I can > sell things if I want to, so long as *reuse* is permitted as it was > for the original dataset. In other words, if I produce a derivative > of a CC-SA licensed work, I am obliged to distribute my work under > that same license. Doesn't stop me selling it, it just means I have > to let other people produce derivatives of my work. But that's the problem, isn't it? If we produce a lovely colourful map of the UK, with motorways (from OSM), hill shading (from SRTM), built-up areas (from DCW/VMAP0) and all, we have to licence it under CC-SA. We can sell it, true, but the first person who buys it will just post it up on their FTP space for free download, and then we're no further along the way of funding OSM. To my mind, this is an unintended consequence of CC-SA as applied to OSM. OSM is about geodata - not cartography, not websites, not books, not anywhere else you might want to place a "map". But CC's ShareAlike doesn't differentiate. I would (personally) be happier with a modified ShareAlike where the CC clause is replaced with something like this: "Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this geodata, you must release the resulting geodata under a licence identical to this one." cheers Richard From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 14:54:02 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Quoting Tom Carden : > > > I don't think that's what CC-SA means. I think it means that I can > > sell things if I want to, so long as *reuse* is permitted as it was > > for the original dataset. In other words, if I produce a derivative > > of a CC-SA licensed work, I am obliged to distribute my work under > > that same license. Doesn't stop me selling it, it just means I have > > to let other people produce derivatives of my work. > > But that's the problem, isn't it? > No :) > If we produce a lovely colourful map of the UK, with motorways (from > OSM), hill > shading (from SRTM), built-up areas (from DCW/VMAP0) and all, we have to > licence it under CC-SA. Yes. > We can sell it, true, but the first person who buys it > will just post it up on their FTP space for free download, That's a possibility. > and then we're no > further along the way of funding OSM. > Well, we're one sale further :) But if we price accordingly (paying for the printing, distribution, etc. with a kickback to OpenStreetMap to support the creation of further open geodata sources) I think we'll still get plenty sales. People still buy CDs, and pay for downloads from iTunes et al, even though p2p is easy, and copying CDs from friends (including artwork) is easy, safe and cheap. Sometimes people just prefer to go to the source. > To my mind, this is an unintended consequence of CC-SA as applied to > OSM. No, it's an intended consequence. For Free geodata you absolutely have to be able to rip/mix/burn however you like. Set the data free and all that. > OSM is > about geodata - not cartography, not websites, not books, not anywhere > else you > might want to place a "map". But CC's ShareAlike doesn't differentiate. > Um, I think it's a little bit to do with all those things, as well as the geodata. > I would (personally) be happier with a modified ShareAlike where the CC clause > is replaced with something like this: > > "Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this geodata, you must > release the resulting geodata under a licence identical to this one." > So you're just replacing 'work' in the current license* with 'geodata'? How does that help? (Not being sarcastic or rhetorical there - I'm not clear on the difference). * http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ Tom. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 15:01:27 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi Tom, >> I am very confident, that if the current OSM server would only allow >> some commercial access, an other server mirror with free access would be >> set up in no time ;-) > > But what if the commercial access I'm talking about is to *services* > and *features* independent of the data? Like a proprietary piece of > code which produces nicely formatted maps, for example? The data can > go elsewhere, you're right, but that's not what I'm talking about. I would call the nice maps that such a software creates out of the data a "derrived work" for sure, right? So no problem here, as long as the maps are under CC-SA too. OSM can try to sell them. If you plan to release the source code of the generator, don't be surprised when other people (like me) show up and provide the very same service for free. I don't see a very good commercial potential here... :-/ In fact, currently I think the only "cool" way to get to money are donations. The acceptance of this could be greatly improved, if there would be more transparence. How much money is needed, why is it needed, where the money will be spent, how this will improve the server and how much improvement is to be excpected. I know, I know, this is a boring job.. so probably not done anyway.. ;) If donations don't get enought money, we need to change the software so it use not that much resources until donations are enough. ;-) Ciao, Imi. From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 15:35:29 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Tom Carden : > So you're just replacing 'work' in the current license* with > 'geodata'? How does that help? (Not being sarcastic or rhetorical > there - I'm not clear on the difference). Ok. "Geodata" is: there's a road from lat/long 51.13425,0.2342345 to 51.34652,0.13245.* It's called Albert Street. It's one-way, there's a pavement for pedestrians to use, and it's part of National Cycle Network route 71. (And any other amount of key/value stuff you want.) This is the essence of OSM. A "map" is: here's a black line on a piece of paper (or a JPEG, or an Illustrator file), depicting Albert Street. Because it's one way, we've put some little arrows along the side of it. (2pt stroke, solid arrowhead, 100% C 50% M 0% Y 0% K). We've written "Albert Street" along it in 3pt Myriad Pro Semibold. We're not producing a walking or a cycling map, so we've ignored the stuff about the pavement and the NCN route. The map is clearly a derived work from the geodata. So why does it help to replace "work" with "geodata"? Because, to quote the first sentence on the wiki, "OpenStreetMap is a project aimed squarely at creating and providing free geographic data". We're not trying to create a cartographic reference library full of different styles of maps, just as long as the geodata coverage expands through the goodness of sharealike (as you say, "set the data free and all that"). Three of the reasons why this clarification is important. One is the suggestion I made about producing lovely-looking maps. By clarifying ShareAlike in this way, we get easy funding for OSM without any loss to the project aims. (And yes, I'm volunteering to do the work.) The second is something that was mentioned earlier (can't remember by who, sorry). It'd be great to do a Google Maps-compatible API using OSM data - a really superb advert for free geodata. At present, if we were to do that, the entire contents of any site using that API could be deemed a derivative work under CC-BY-SA; so you've got to make sure that every single piece of data on your site can be relicenced under ShareAlike, even assuming you want to. And it wouldn't be so great to have a "free" API that you could actually use in fewer situations than the proprietary one. And the third is that, by removing limitations on the ways in which OSM-derived maps can appear, we make it more likely that these maps will be produced. The other part of CC-BY-SA is Attribution, and I would love to see printed maps springing up here, there and everywhere with little OSM logos, saying "go to openstreetmap.org to find out how to help". What I'm suggesting isn't anything new. In the full CC-BY-SA Legal Code, they already have an exemption like this: the concept of a Collective Work. This says, broadly, that if you incorporate it into an encyclopaedia/anthology/whatnot, then SA only applies to this one entry. CC's a literary licence, not a geodata one: we need the geodata equivalent. cheers Richard * All geodata in this example derived by hitting random keys :) From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 15:41:20 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] OSM cannot 'own' the data (was: The bigger picture) In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140621v5b5e1f7dj51d5a356720a6a70@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <16e8cf860602140621v5b5e1f7dj51d5a356720a6a70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46577.80.246.32.40.1139931680.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, just a note: > In my opinion OSM *should* own the data, it makes distribution and > attribution in particular a lot clearer. This is not possible in countries like Germany. Unlike in USA, you cannot give up your status as copyright owner (as people who may give licenses). So at least for german contributors, OSM can never take away the possibility of this contributor that he may license its data (if it is not derrived work etc.) under something different. This may be true for other countries too. Please, do not try to make up a license where something like "transfer of copyright" or "loose ownership" is stated, since this license will not be legal in germany. Example: If you are german and work for a company under german rights, you usually license an exclusive right to use, sublicense etc. everything you do during company-time to your boss. But this does not mean that you loose ownership. As example you could relicense all stuff you made (even during work time) under some other license, say GPL. Your boss will surely get upset, may fire you, may drag you to a court, may sue you for compensation of all his looses because this until the universum dies etc.. but the stuff will still be licensed properly under GPL! If the same employee did this in USA, the license is null and void, since he loose the status as a copyright owner to his company. Ciao, Imi. PS: For interested people, Google after the Hamburger Landgericht decission about the GPL license. ;-) From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 15:43:56 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > Hi Tom, > > >> I am very confident, that if the current OSM server would only allow > >> some commercial access, an other server mirror with free access would be > >> set up in no time ;-) > > > > But what if the commercial access I'm talking about is to *services* > > and *features* independent of the data? Like a proprietary piece of > > code which produces nicely formatted maps, for example? The data can > > go elsewhere, you're right, but that's not what I'm talking about. > > I would call the nice maps that such a software creates out of the data a > "derrived work" for sure, right? So no problem here, as long as the maps > are under CC-SA too. OSM can try to sell them. > > If you plan to release the source code of the generator, don't be > surprised when other people (like me) show up and provide the very same > service for free. I don't see a very good commercial potential here... :-/ > And if you do that, and OSM folds because its own supporters disrupt its attempts to be self-sufficient... don't be surprised! Anyway, if my point is that people - including the OSM project itself - are perfectly entitled to charge for things based off the current OSM license. Nothing anywhere says it has to be free as in beer. Now the *spirit* of the project is that these things will be free wherever possible, and I don't see that going away for the foreseeable future. It's not impossible though. I'm not psychic, but I'm certainly not going to rule it out. > > In fact, currently I think the only "cool" way to get to money are > donations. The acceptance of this could be greatly improved, if there > would be more transparence. How much money is needed, why is it needed, > where the money will be spent, how this will improve the server and how > much improvement is to be excpected. And is it sustainable? Would it work once a year? What about every 6 months? Are you going to do Steve's taxes for him? What do people get for their money? What can they reasonably expect? Is the burden on the recipients of the money fair? etc. etc. > I know, I know, this is a boring > job.. so probably not done anyway.. ;) > > If donations don't get enought money, we need to change the software so it > use not that much resources until donations are enough. ;-) Please do! What changes would you make, and can you make the case that those features aren't necessary? Tom. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 16:11:40 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <57878.80.246.32.40.1139933500.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > The map is clearly a derived work from the geodata. Yes. This is good. > By clarifying ShareAlike in this way, we get easy funding for OSM without > any loss to the project aims. (And yes, I'm volunteering to do the work.) I forbid you to do this with the data I contributed (which counts nothing, since I only contributed a few nodes so far ;). > The second is something that was mentioned earlier (can't remember by who, > sorry). It'd be great to do a Google Maps-compatible API using OSM data - > a really superb advert for free geodata. Although I don't use Google Maps (haven't looked at it yet), this could get us many new people. :-) Good idea. > At present, if we were to do that, the entire contents of any site using > that API could be deemed a derivative work under CC-BY-SA; so you've got > to make sure that every single piece of data on your site can be > relicenced under ShareAlike, even assuming you want to. Well, I don't know whether OSM can claim that. Parts of the site that don't have to do anything with the map are not derrived work to my eyes. But you may be right. > And it wouldn't be so great to have a "free" API that you could actually > use in fewer situations than the proprietary one. ... > And the third is that, by removing limitations on the ways in which > OSM-derived maps can appear, we make it more likely that these maps will > be produced. That is the same argument that people uses to support BSD-like licenses in favour of GPL. I don't share their opinions. To rant a bit (dunno who of the big GNU-guys first said that): "I won't buy publicity by giving up freedom." And my opinion is, that I give up freedom when allowing properitar derrived works from my work. Period - no disussion here possible. > The other part of CC-BY-SA is Attribution, and I would love to see printed > maps springing up here, there and everywhere with little OSM logos, saying > "go to openstreetmap.org to find out how to help". My personal opinion is, that the -BY- part of CC is a disadvantage. I don't like forcing people to attribute someone else. (This is the reason I don't like FDL) However, maybe it is a needed part for legal reasons (there is no CC2.0-no attribution version anymore..) or maybe other people like it beeing attributed so much.. well, I can live with that.. > What I'm suggesting isn't anything new. Yes. I think, similar discussions can be found by googling after "BSD vs. GPL" To make my point clear: I don't see OSM as a platform to provide companies cheap input for their commercial, proprietary applications. (And "company" is not relative to me. There is no "xxx Euro" threshold possible. If OSM itself make commercial use of its own data, OSM is a company.) Any derrived work from any geodata retrieved from OSM must be licensed under the same license OSM is. CC-BY-SA is widely accepted and many people don't have a problem with licensing their stuff under this (as is GPL). Ciao, Imi. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 16:11:29 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140811s5c17de13qb790803a3559c231@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Quoting Tom Carden : > > > So you're just replacing 'work' in the current license* with > > 'geodata'? How does that help? (Not being sarcastic or rhetorical > > there - I'm not clear on the difference). > > Ok. > > "Geodata" is: there's a road from lat/long 51.13425,0.2342345 to > 51.34652,0.13245.* It's called Albert Street. It's one-way, there's a pavement > for pedestrians to use, and it's part of National Cycle Network route 71. (And > any other amount of key/value stuff you want.) This is the essence of OSM. > > A "map" is: here's a black line on a piece of paper (or a JPEG, or an > Illustrator file), depicting Albert Street. Because it's one way, we've put > some little arrows along the side of it. (2pt stroke, solid arrowhead, 100% C > 50% M 0% Y 0% K). We've written "Albert Street" along it in 3pt Myriad Pro > Semibold. We're not producing a walking or a cycling map, so we've ignored the > stuff about the pavement and the NCN route. > > The map is clearly a derived work from the geodata. > Sure. I pretty much accept those definitions, though the piece of paper bit is irrelevant, and I wonder about a half-way thing - a similar description of a vector file format which could be printed to produce the 'map' above but which could also be transformed back into the 'geodata' above. > So why does it help to replace "work" with "geodata"? Because, to quote the > first sentence on the wiki, "OpenStreetMap is a project aimed squarely at > creating and providing free geographic data". Quoting the wiki is kind of irrelevant. There are lots of other things on the wiki that are wrong :) > We're not trying to create a > cartographic reference library full of different styles of maps, just as long > as the geodata coverage expands through the goodness of sharealike (as > you say, > "set the data free and all that"). Not sure what you mean by 'different styles of maps' - the aim of any of my involvement in OSM has been to make the creation of maps from GPS data as easy as possible. I say maps there and not geodata deliberately. The fact is, the most flexible way to make editable maps is to store the underlying geodata and edit that, then the presentation is independent of the data. > > Three of the reasons why this clarification is important. > > One is the suggestion I made about producing lovely-looking maps. By > clarifying > ShareAlike in this way, we get easy funding for OSM without any loss to the > project aims. (And yes, I'm volunteering to do the work.) > You're suggesting that by sleight-of-hand with the wording you can define your way into a situation where a "map" (under your above definition) derived from "geodata" (under your above definition) is not required to be distributed under a sharealike license? > The second is something that was mentioned earlier (can't remember by who, > sorry). Me :) > It'd be great to do a Google Maps-compatible API using OSM data - a > really superb advert for free geodata. At present, if we were to do that, the > entire contents of any site using that API could be deemed a derivative work > under CC-BY-SA; so you've got to make sure that every single piece of data on > your site can be relicenced under ShareAlike, even assuming you want > to. And it > wouldn't be so great to have a "free" API that you could actually use in fewer > situations than the proprietary one. Well, we already have proprietary APIs that are free as in beer, but restrict the creation of derived works. Why not a free as in freedom API that requires any derived works to be under a CC sharealike license too? Again, this doesn't prohibit people from selling their data, just requires them to distribute it under the same terms as the OSM data they derived it from. That sounds totally fair to me - OSM gets the benefit too since the derived works could go back into the main database. (I'm advocating a 'viral' GPL-y way of doing things here but I see how if the license could be written as you suggest, we could go a MIT-y or BSD-y way - people who "get it" would submit back to OSM regardless, and it's a waste of time to force people who don't "get it" to play by our rules. See this recent Ruby on Rails interview for an example of this sentiment in action http://uk.builder.com/architecture/oop/0,39026558,39297360-3,00.htm) > > And the third is that, by removing limitations on the ways in which > OSM-derived > maps can appear, we make it more likely that these maps will be produced. I think they'll get produced anyway, and if you loosen the restrictions then you just encourage people to go off and do it alone without feeding back into the project. Rather the attempts to profit from OSM be tightly coupled to the project than parasitically skimming off the top of it. > The > other part of CC-BY-SA is Attribution, and I would love to see printed maps > springing up here, there and everywhere with little OSM logos, saying "go to > openstreetmap.org to find out how to help". > Me too! > What I'm suggesting isn't anything new. In the full CC-BY-SA Legal Code, they > already have an exemption like this: the concept of a Collective Work. This > says, broadly, that if you incorporate it into an > encyclopaedia/anthology/whatnot, then SA only applies to this one > entry. CC's a > literary licence, not a geodata one: we need the geodata equivalent. > I wish you'd said that earlier - it is an interesting distinction when you look at it like that. I just don't think it's one worth making. Tom. From waban_star at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 16:36:56 2006 From: waban_star at yahoo.com (wabanstar) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Development Message-ID: <20060214163656.55345.qmail@web36605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just to repond to this-- "allowed non-shared products, while still requiring _geodata_ to be contributed back to OSM?" "2. Relicence OSM as "free for non-commercial use only for organisations with under ?xx,xxx of mapping-related turnover". In other words, everyone gets to use OSM data for free except the big guys (whether they be OS, Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, whoever), who have to negotiate with us to fund the project." The large providers would probably pay for the enire cost (within reason?) of OSM just to get a peek at the data uploads. I would suggest contacting them directly and discuss the idea. The faster you get up to speed and ingest data the quicker they can mine it for attribution. wabanstar __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From reviews at pacific-rim.net Tue Feb 14 16:47:28 2006 From: reviews at pacific-rim.net (David Groom) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com><1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1><16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com><41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de><16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com><36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> Let me make it quite clear that in my original post I was NOT suggesting charging for access to any of the projects data. When I wrote: >To this end I believe that even if the basic data remains free there needs >to be a way of charging for something. I'm afraid I'm not that technical so I'll have to resort to being overly simplistic here. But what I meant by that is that anyone should have access to as much of the underlying data as they wish, and that some basic from of map, such as the ability to reproduce something like what is on the "view" tab of OSM should also be free an unrestricted. What I was suggesting is that there was the possibility that added value could be created if, for instance, there was an applet which say: - allowed me to turn off the landsat photo as a background - allowed me to alter the background colour of the map - allowed me to turn off / on the printing of street names - etc and that maybe this generated an image which I could download. It was this which I was suggesting could be charged for. If this suggestion still gives problems, then don't even make payment mandatory, just provide a method by which I could donate something for that image. I honestly don't see any difference to my above suggestion, and the selling of the London Poster. David From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 16:50:00 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140811s5c17de13qb790803a3559c231@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140811s5c17de13qb790803a3559c231@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060214165000.qbedb4sl8gsk04os@webmail.systemed.net> Tom wrote: > On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: >> And the third is that, by removing limitations on the ways in which >> OSM-derived maps can appear, we make it more likely that these maps >> will be produced. > > I think they'll get produced anyway, and if you loosen the > restrictions then you just encourage people to go off and do it alone > without feeding back into the project. Rather the attempts to profit > from OSM be tightly coupled to the project than parasitically skimming > off the top of it. I'll give a real-life example. I'd like to produce a complete map of Britain's waterways for my day job, which is as editor of Waterways World magazine. The basic ingredient for this is the line data for all Britain's canals and rivers, and I'm working on that at present. If OSM's ShareAlike just applies to the geodata, then I could think about including OSM-sourced motorways as a faint background layer to this map. I then contribute all the canal/river line data back to OSM, as required by ShareAlike. OSM gets a free plug in 18,000 homes, and a nice load of new data, at least partly drawn in work time and donated by the company I work for. If OSM's ShareAlike applies to the entire finished map, though, I have to put a PDF up somewhere, and licence that as ShareAlike. This means, next month, I'll see it appear in the other competing magazines. I really can't see my boss going for that. So OSM doesn't get the data. Instead, I either buy the motorways from Ordnance Survey, or just forget about them totally. In other words, blanket application of ShareAlike makes it _harder_ for commercial companies to contribute to the project. You said earlier on: > Again, this doesn't prohibit people from selling their > data, just requires them to distribute it under the same terms as the > OSM data they derived it from. That sounds totally fair to me - OSM > gets the benefit too since the derived works could go back into the > main database. But you can't feed PDFs, Illustrator files, paper maps or websites back into the OSM database... or am I missing your point? (likewise, that's not a rhetorical question, it's genuine puzzlement) cheers Richard From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 16:57:01 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, David Groom wrote: > Let me make it quite clear that in my original post I was NOT suggesting > charging for access to any of the projects data. When I wrote: > I wasn't either, but now we really know not to bother suggesting it on purpose :) > >To this end I believe that even if the basic data remains free there needs > >to be a way of charging for something. > > I'm afraid I'm not that technical so I'll have to resort to being overly > simplistic here. But what I meant by that is that anyone should have access > to as much of the underlying data as they wish, and that some basic from of > map, such as the ability to reproduce something like what is on the "view" > tab of OSM should also be free an unrestricted. > > What I was suggesting is that there was the possibility that added value > could be created if, for instance, there was an applet which say: > > - allowed me to turn off the landsat photo as a background > - allowed me to alter the background colour of the map > - allowed me to turn off / on the printing of street names > - etc > Sounds good to me. Perhaps add a ticket for this request on trac? http://www.openstreetmap.org/trac (your OpenStreetMap account should work there). > and that maybe this generated an image which I could download. It was this > which I was suggesting could be charged for. If this suggestion still gives > problems, then don't even make payment mandatory, just provide a method by > which I could donate something for that image. > This is exactly what I was talking about. Useful tools to allow potential map consumers to customise what they get out of OSM for a fee. Nothing about locking up the data. For example, it's currently not possible to get the tile renderer to produce images bigger than the current tile size. It would be nice to offer bigger images but we don't for performance reasons. Perhaps we could offer a hi-res image rendering service for a small fee... it wouldn't change the licensing and it would help pay for hosting. > I honestly don't see any difference to my above suggestion, and the selling > of the London Poster. > Neither do I, of course. The whole point of the London poster for me is that: * Steve and I did it first * it captures a particular moment of OpenStreetMap * we went out of our way to make sure it was printed nicely * anyone could make one * if you buy one from me and Steve, the money goes to OpenStreetMap Note that the code to make it isn't Free, and we didn't distribute the digital format. The paper maps are licensed in the same way as the OpenStreetMap source data. Best, Tom. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 17:08:11 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214165000.qbedb4sl8gsk04os@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140811s5c17de13qb790803a3559c231@mail.gmail.com> <20060214165000.qbedb4sl8gsk04os@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140908w7a596bd6xf20b80bd21decf29@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Tom wrote: > > > On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > >> And the third is that, by removing limitations on the ways in which > >> OSM-derived maps can appear, we make it more likely that these maps > >> will be produced. > > > > I think they'll get produced anyway, and if you loosen the > > restrictions then you just encourage people to go off and do it alone > > without feeding back into the project. Rather the attempts to profit > > from OSM be tightly coupled to the project than parasitically skimming > > off the top of it. > > I'll give a real-life example. > > I'd like to produce a complete map of Britain's waterways for my day > job, which > is as editor of Waterways World magazine. The basic ingredient for this is the > line data for all Britain's canals and rivers, and I'm working on that at > present. > > If OSM's ShareAlike just applies to the geodata, then I could think about > including OSM-sourced motorways as a faint background layer to this > map. I then > contribute all the canal/river line data back to OSM, as required by > ShareAlike. > OSM gets a free plug in 18,000 homes, and a nice load of new data, at least > partly drawn in work time and donated by the company I work for. > Just to be clear, you're saying that under your proposed geodata-specific license then if you used OSM's motorway data in your waterways maps, you would be required to contribute the canal/river line data back to OpenStreetMap? That's not true. You'd be required to make your geodata available under the same license, but you wouldn't be required to submit it to OSM. And this is where it gets tricky... you're not distributing geodata, you're distributing a map - now your map has to come with source code ;) > If OSM's ShareAlike applies to the entire finished map, though, I have > to put a > PDF up somewhere, and licence that as ShareAlike. That's not true either. You just have to allow people to copy/distribute/modify your map, from whatever format you distribute it in, to other formats, and to allow derivative works under the same license. So I could scan your map, add my favourite canal-side pubs, and then put that map on my website, so long as I maintained the license. Where does it say that if you produce a print work from a CC licensed source, you have to make a digital version available? > This means, next month, I'll > see it appear in the other competing magazines. I really can't see my boss > going for that. > Why not? You had it a month early, and you have the digital copy and can easily keep it up to date. > So OSM doesn't get the data. Instead, I either buy the motorways from Ordnance > Survey, or just forget about them totally. > > In other words, blanket application of ShareAlike makes it _harder_ for > commercial companies to contribute to the project. > A blanket misinterpretation of your obligations under cc sharealike certainly does do that :) > You said earlier on: > > > Again, this doesn't prohibit people from selling their > > data, just requires them to distribute it under the same terms as the > > OSM data they derived it from. That sounds totally fair to me - OSM > > gets the benefit too since the derived works could go back into the > > main database. > > But you can't feed PDFs, Illustrator files, paper maps or websites back > into the > OSM database... or am I missing your point? (likewise, that's not a rhetorical > question, it's genuine puzzlement) > Not yet, and that's something to ponder, but there's no reason why they couldn't at least be included as raster layers like out-of-copyright maps hopefully will be and like landsat currently is. Tom. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 17:10:21 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <57878.80.246.32.40.1139933500.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> <57878.80.246.32.40.1139933500.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140910s72f127c4gd078075bc124530e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > To make my point clear: > > I don't see OSM as a platform to provide companies cheap input for their > commercial, proprietary applications. (And "company" is not relative to > me. There is no "xxx Euro" threshold possible. If OSM itself make > commercial use of its own data, OSM is a company.) > What about not-for-profit use, with a healthy turnover? What about if it pays staff a competitive rate for their work? (And if not, how is paying staff to code different to paying for commercial hosting?) Best, Tom. From richard at systemeD.net Tue Feb 14 17:16:31 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060214171631.hn827w054w0cogsg@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Tom Carden : > This is exactly what I was talking about. Useful tools to allow > potential map consumers to customise what they get out of OSM for a > fee. Nothing about locking up the data. I'm really, really disappointed by that last comment, assuming it's aimed at me. :( I don't think pejorative language like "locking up", "sleight of hand" or "parasitically" gets the argument very far. You've doubtless got your own views on which licences will lead to a better world, I've got mine, clearly Imi and Lars have theirs, and probably everyone else on the list has, too. Half of Usenet is taken up by GPL vs. BSD flames, and recreating this on the OSM list doesn't get us very far. I've contributed data (GPS tracks and, underway atm, the New Popular Edition map scans) to OSM because I believe in the wider good of free geodata. CC-BY-SA wouldn't be my first licence of choice; likewise, I'm an amateur Perlmonger, not a Rubyite; but I'm happy to overlook both of these and countless others, because if none of us compromised, there wouldn't be a project. What I've been trying to suggest this afternoon is simply a pragmatic way in which OSM could earn some funding without (as I see it) any danger to the ideals of the project. You don't like it, that's cool. But cruelly (and subjectively) characterising others' opinions with little jibes like "locking up the data" does no good whatsoever and frankly just serves to put off thin-skinned people like me. (Writing this has coincided with your latest reply coming in. I don't see that continuing the fisking will get anyone anywhere so, if you're all right with that, I'll leave it to rest here.) Richard From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 17:26:35 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214171631.hn827w054w0cogsg@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> <20060214171631.hn827w054w0cogsg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140926x7ba1199en8237f3cc9be13815@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Quoting Tom Carden : > > > This is exactly what I was talking about. Useful tools to allow > > potential map consumers to customise what they get out of OSM for a > > fee. Nothing about locking up the data. > > I'm really, really disappointed by that last comment, assuming it's > aimed at me. > :( > Not even read the rest of the email yet. It's definitely not aimed at you! I was still worried that we earlier managed to upset Lars and give the impression that things were going to drastically change... hence constant reassurances to the contrary. I should also add that our only real disagreement so far has been on the interpretation of CC licenses - something I am not qualified to do. So the usual 'I am not a lawyer' (I don't even play one on TV) excuses apply if I said something stupid. Tom. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 17:27:46 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57990.80.246.32.40.1139938066.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi again, > For example, it's currently not possible to get the tile renderer to > produce images bigger than the current tile size. It would be nice to > offer bigger images but we don't for performance reasons. I am not sure about this is for performance reason.. > Perhaps we could offer a hi-res image rendering service for a small fee... > it wouldn't change the licensing and it would help pay for hosting. This commercial model is flawed. If there is a need for bigger maps (which is), and if it is possible to provide the service for less cost (there is: when you don't have to pay for the server), then there will be an offer for this. People will show up with free map generators (and why not?). (Usually this people don't want to destroy OSM, but they want free hi-res images.) The only "advantage" OSM has when selling this kind of stuff is, that everyone who buys their goods also donate a little bit of money along to fund the server. So why do it this complicated and not just seperate the two things? Make the service free and provide a paypal for donations. You save a lot of grief with other people providing your services for free. >> I honestly don't see any difference to my above suggestion, and the >> selling of the London Poster. London Posters are much more of value BECAUSE people owning them know that with buying, they also donated money. I think all the poster, T-Shirt etc. Stuff ARE just masked donations. This is not bad, but fundamental different from providing a service many people want to have without donating. "Donation" is always voluntary. > The whole point of the London poster for me is that: > > * Steve and I did it first > * it captures a particular moment of OpenStreetMap > * we went out of our way to make sure it was printed nicely > * anyone could make one > * if you buy one from me and Steve, the money goes to OpenStreetMap Yea, excactly what I said. Having such a Poster is cool, not only because there is just a picture of London on it, but of all the other stuff that is associated with it. THAT is something other people cannot provide and THAT is, what osm could 'sell'. But a service providing nice maps for homepages is IMHO not a "fan article" anymore. > Note that the code to make it isn't Free, and we didn't distribute the > digital format. The paper maps are licensed in the same way as the > OpenStreetMap source data. I think, this is only a small barrier. Your effort scale linear with the effort of other people have, doing the same. So you cannot build up a large enough advantage in this way to prevent other people from "stealing" your idea. Except if you are trolltech, of course. They can sell QT, since they have the power to outcode any competitors ;) Ciao, Imi. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 17:43:41 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214171631.hn827w054w0cogsg@webmail.systemed.net> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> <20060214171631.hn827w054w0cogsg@webmail.systemed.net> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602140943w42e1c570m4ef0253a426d0fd@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > I don't think pejorative language like "locking up", "sleight of hand" or > "parasitically" gets the argument very far. As I said a moment ago, I see 'locking up' as a bad thing too. I'd said something earlier which implied I thought it was a good thing, so I was making sure people didn't think I was advocating it. As for 'sleight of hand' - I'm still having trouble seeing how changing one word really helps, that's all. What you're really doing is defining the useful 'work' done by the OSM project as collecting geodata... fine, but I think it's more than that, that's all. As for parasitically, I believe that sharealike licenses are parasitic/viral. I don't think that's a bad thing. > You've doubtless got your > own views > on which licences will lead to a better world, I've got mine, clearly Imi and > Lars have theirs, and probably everyone else on the list has, too. Half of > Usenet is taken up by GPL vs. BSD flames, and recreating this on the OSM list > doesn't get us very far. I really don't care about licenses (I certainly don't have a favourite), aside from how they affect the way that people view the project and the way that people interact with and contribute to it. I don't believe everything has an objectively correct answer either - the best license for OpenStreetMap, for some value of best, is a crazily hard thing to decide, and one that we've backed out of discussing at length on the list before for good reason. It really is interesting to hear that your interpretation of CC ShareAlike licenses means that you don't think you can use OpenStreetMap geodata in a commercial publication. That's a real shame. I really would like to persuade you that you're wrong, but I'm not in publishing, I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't tried it... I hope I'm right though, because I don't see a way around it. (Certain members of the community will steadfastly refuse to relicense their data, as we've seen. I'm not one of them, but then my contributions on the data end are minor). > > I've contributed data (GPS tracks and, underway atm, the New Popular > Edition map > scans) to OSM because I believe in the wider good of free geodata. CC-BY-SA > wouldn't be my first licence of choice; likewise, I'm an amateur Perlmonger, > not a Rubyite; but I'm happy to overlook both of these and countless others, > because if none of us compromised, there wouldn't be a project. > Absolutely. You also contribute a big pile of much-needed common sense and pragmatism, and experience from your own project. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed. > What I've been trying to suggest this afternoon is simply a pragmatic way in > which OSM could earn some funding without (as I see it) any danger to the > ideals of the project. I was trying to suggest some things like that too. > You don't like it, that's cool. That's not true. With respect to licensing, I don't see a real difference between geodata and maps, but your persistence is helping in this respect. It's certainly not my place to argue with you and your boss's decisions about using OSM data(though I can and do question their basis). > But cruelly (and > subjectively) characterising others' opinions with little jibes like "locking > up the data" does no good whatsoever and frankly just serves to put off > thin-skinned people like me. I really didn't aim that at you - it was self-criticism! > > (Writing this has coincided with your latest reply coming in. I don't see that > continuing the fisking will get anyone anywhere so, if you're all right with > that, I'll leave it to rest here.) Probably wise, but thanks for taking the time so far. I was about to bow out myself for the same reason (but I managed not to take personal offence... even at Lars and Imi's militant stance against any discussion of pay-for services!). I'll leave us with this recent Wired article: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70179-0.html :) Tom. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 17:51:07 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <16e8cf860602140910s72f127c4gd078075bc124530e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> <57878.80.246.32.40.1139933500.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140910s72f127c4gd078075bc124530e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17823.80.246.32.40.1139939467.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> > On 2/14/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: >> To make my point clear: >> >> I don't see OSM as a platform to provide companies cheap input for their >> commercial, proprietary applications. (And "company" is not relative to >> me. There is no "xxx Euro" threshold possible. If OSM itself make >> commercial use of its own data, OSM is a company.) > > What about not-for-profit use, Declined. "Not for profit" is not enough for me. I want "free as in freedom" ;-) That's what keeps me with OSM (and what lured me to it in the first place). > with a healthy turnover? I won't sell freedom, sorry. "Healthy turnover" is not a lure for me. If the contributor has a problem with the idea of "free", then we have a problem. (A side effect: Giving in with this means encouraging contributors that "have a problem with the idea of free".) > What about if it pays staff a competitive rate for their work? If the data this staff create become free (in this case: CC-SA), it is ok if someone get paid for it, I don't care. ;-) But if someone try to convince me, that nothing can be done on "viral-freedom"-effected license and that we must sell some of our souls and allow "some more freedom (as in beer)" to be successfull, I point to the whole GPL'd open source community and decline. ;-) Ciao, Imi. PS: Well, I don't want to do "just another GPL vs. BSD discussion" again. This looks to me like we are getting into exactly this. So I will try not to post too much on this anymore and await the community decision. I hope it is CC-SA, but since I did not contributed any data so far (only some nodes which were only for testing JOSM), I have no vote in this as a "copyright holder". ;-) PPS: Why would a contributor donate resources to OSM if his donation become free? Maybe he don't want to maintain the data in the future? Steve spoke about a company that delivers letters in London and contributed, because they hope that OSM will maintain their map data and so they get to free and accurate data.. sounds resonable to me :). From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 18:00:22 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <17823.80.246.32.40.1139939467.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> <20060214142100.7lv7i1wpsk804c0s@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140626w2ebc4b97ucb792db12b451fd8@mail.gmail.com> <20060214144015.5c7sacoh6o080oss@webmail.systemed.net> <16e8cf860602140654w1d1a1866g3fd2776915d20b1a@mail.gmail.com> <20060214153529.cf8ljk7v40cw8s8c@webmail.systemed.net> <57878.80.246.32.40.1139933500.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140910s72f127c4gd078075bc124530e@mail.gmail.com> <17823.80.246.32.40.1139939467.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602141000w17759e08p115af8d24abedfc8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Immanuel Scholz wrote: > PPS: Why would a contributor donate resources to OSM if his donation > become free? Maybe he don't want to maintain the data in the future? Steve > spoke about a company that delivers letters in London and contributed, > because they hope that OSM will maintain their map data and so they get to > free and accurate data.. sounds resonable to me :). > eCourier - www.ecourier.co.uk / http://www.ecourier.co.uk/eCourierISAPI.dll?news They donate raw GPS data because it costs them (almost) nothing to do so, and they're nice guys who really understand the project and its background (one of them was involved in launching the CC licenses in the UK). Tom. From tom at tom-carden.co.uk Tue Feb 14 18:06:37 2006 From: tom at tom-carden.co.uk (Tom Carden) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <200602141310.19124.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> References: <200602141310.19124.streetmap@blibbleblobble.co.uk> Message-ID: <16e8cf860602141006v5b3364e9n38deb4dcbfcf7d27@mail.gmail.com> On 2/14/06, Oliver White wrote: > Perhaps if somebody were to sell the OSM data on ebay as a CD, it would help > in the case of other websites who need large amounts of data. > Not necessarily ebay, but good idea: http://www.openstreetmap.org/trac/ticket/136 > The benefit of CC-BY-SA in all this of course, is that anyone who buys the > data can redistribute it (on their websites, on ebay, on bittorrent, etc.) > further reducing the bandwidth (and support) burden on everyone. > http://www.openstreetmap.org/trac/ticket/137 Tom. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 14 20:47:04 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] JOSM 1.1 released Message-ID: <1198.62.158.124.82.1139950024.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, the second JOSM release is out. It is an bugfix release, so almost no new features were added. But since I fixed some really nasty bugs, please do upgrade to this version as soon as possible. download: http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm-1.1.jar wiki: http://wiki.eigenheimstrasse.de/wiki/JOSM bugs: http://wiki.eigenheimstrasse.de/wiki/JOSM/Bugs or josm@eigenheimstrasse.de Features new to 1.0: - JOSM is asking you, whether you want to discard your changes, if you don't save or upload them. Please do not discard already uploaded changes and later continue to work on the old files. Remember: Uploading new objects will also change them. - new command line option --no-fullscreen Bugfixes (majors): - fixed save/load of GPX and OSM data. Now the modified state of objects is preserved correctly, so you can change something, save it and later continue changing without the need of uploads between. - fixed merging of data on download and open file. Now nothing you changed get thrown away and everything you did not changed get updated. So it should be safe now to do an download prior to every upload. - fixed the server rounding issue, where JOSM's lat/lon precision was much finer that that of the server which caused doubled nodes in JOSM. You should never see any doubled nodes again (of course, except if they are there by purpose ;) For a complete changelog, use "svn log http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/svn/josm -r 44:53". Imi. From jo at frot.org Wed Feb 15 02:14:36 2006 From: jo at frot.org (Jo Walsh) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Please Help Petition for Public Access to Geodata in Europe Message-ID: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> dear openstreetmap list, Please sign the petition: http://petition.publicgeodata.org/ Yesterday the INSPIRE Directive on European "spatial data infrastructure" began its second reading in the European Parliament. Within a few weeks or months it may entrench a policy of charging European citizens to access public information they've already paid to collect. Members of the European Parliament think this an obscure and dull technical issue; but free public access to geographic information is essential for economic innovation and civic co-operation. Benjamin Henrion and I are starting the above petition to MEPs to reject the current draft of the INSPIRE directive. It's all rather last-minute; we may have as little as a month before the Directive gets through its second reading; so it's important we try and get as many signatures as we can, as soon as we can, and get the word out. People writing open source software, people who create a lot of GPS information as a byproduct of being a hiker or cycle courier, people who love cartography and just want to improve the representation of the world around them, all over Europe, are getting together through http://openstreetmap.org/ to create and share geographic information. New data exchange standards, at both ad-hoc and industry level, allow for more of the creation of maps and description of the environment to be carried out by people who know the location well; map data, census information and other essential data about how people and places interact, which is used to manage civic society. INSPIRE ignores all these trends. It is a narrow view that was formed without a full survey of what's being done with spatial information - especially with GPS and GSM positioning based media, new kinds of transport logistics systems, and the upcoming GALILEO satellite network. GALILEO will guarantee a reasonable quality signal for free to all citizens. A Directive about access to state-collected public geographic information, should guarantee freedom of access to data. If you are in Europe, please help us raise awareness among MEPs that this is a much bigger issue than it seems, and shouldn't be rubber-stamped! Help us by signing http://petition.publicgeodata.org/ . Please tell other interest groups that you're a part of - non-geo, or even non-geek - and ask other European friends to help us by signing the petition. Please feel free to forward this mail, or bits of it, onwards. http://publicgeodata.org/ is a wiki for collaboration on research into the issue, into some of the history and context around this legislation, also providing a quick rough guide for focusing energy when contacting your MEPs about this regressive, short-termist law. If INSPIRE passes its second reading with this wording, all our in-car navigation systems, mobile phones, local search services, will become more expensive and less useful; INSPIRE threatens to set back economic innovation in location aware technology in Europe by many years. -jo From robert.wyatt at mail.utexas.edu Wed Feb 15 07:30:20 2006 From: robert.wyatt at mail.utexas.edu (Robert T Wyatt) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <20060214135801.GD382@asklater.com> Message-ID: <43F2D88C.4070206@mail.utexas.edu> SteveC wrote: > No, but we _do_ need to find a way to pay for computers. Any ideas? Over at lilypond.org, which is open source, one thing the developers do is accept commissions for "sponsored features" in the code. They are paid for producing a feature which is subsequently put into the open source project. So, I ask what it would cost to have SVG support and Steve says,"I'll do it for xx(x?)Euros." I send Steve the money via PayPal and the world is a better place. Don't get me wrong, the code is a volunteer effort, but those volunteers have plenty of work to do without dealing with a small group's wishlist. However they may be willing to put in the time if they can buy more beer. ... just a thought. Cheers! Robert From preben at chin.dk Wed Feb 15 10:12:53 2006 From: preben at chin.dk (Preben Mikael Bohn) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Please Help Petition for Public Access to Geodata in Europe In-Reply-To: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> References: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> Message-ID: <21135.193.163.1.105.1139998373.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> Dear Jo > Please sign the petition: http://petition.publicgeodata.org/ > Yesterday the INSPIRE Directive on European "spatial data infrastructure" > began its second reading in the European Parliament. Within a few > weeks or months it may entrench a policy of charging European citizens > to access public information they've already paid to collect. Members of > the European Parliament think this an obscure and dull technical issue; > but free public access to geographic information is essential for economic > innovation and civic co-operation. > > Benjamin Henrion and I are starting the above petition to MEPs to > reject the current draft of the INSPIRE directive. It's all rather > last-minute; we may have as little as a month before the Directive > gets through its second reading; so it's important we try and get as > many signatures as we can, as soon as we can, and get the word out. Could ypu please explain _exactly_ where in the actual proposal - located at http://inspire.jrc.it/proposal/EN.pdf - you find arguments for the above mentioned sentence: "entrench a policy of charging European citizens to access public information they've already paid to collect"? I am simply curious; I have just browsed through the proposal and can not find anything resembling that point of view (however I did not use that much time). I did, however, find something interesting: "(16) Experience in the Member States has shown that it is important, for the successful implementation of an infrastructure for spatial information, that a minimum number of services be made available to the public free of charge. Member States should therefore make available, as a minimum and free of charge, the services for discovering and viewing spatial data sets." Best regards Preben From f_mohr at yahoo.de Wed Feb 15 11:49:14 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> Message-ID: <43F3153A.9000704@yahoo.de> I started this mail as a reply to the first "bigger picture" and now i try to express my concerns to some of the mails that came in later I'll structure my mail with pseudo-quotes > > === > As a start, let me tell you how i came into this (might get a bit longer, but it explains some of my concerns) several years ago, my parents took part in some kind of annual rally. since i can remember (very long time) this follows the same rules: - you get a booklet with the description of 12 destinations. - each destination is more or less paraphrased - you have half a year to go to each destination and get a stamp there - there is no restriction how you find the destination (main goal is to learn more about your wider surrounding area) one evening my mom called me as they couldn't solve one destinations with a geographic riddle. (something about 2 rivers and a mountain as far as i remember) At this time i had xrmap (http://frmas.free.fr/li_1.htm#_Xrmap_) on my system with map data from the "CIA World data bank II" that showed just nothing in the search area. that made me curious and i started to seach for more data and other software. the result was (for Europe, for the USA and Canada the situation is different) - there is a lot of free (FOSS) GIS, mapping and routing software for Linux/Unix - free (in both senses) data is rather limited - if you get data for a larger area, it's at large scale - sometimes you get really detailed data, but thats only for testing purposes and for some small areas - at that time, there where some few projects with free detailed geo data (Frida/BBBike) - some free programs (ex. GPSdrive) use bitmap data from commercial but freely accessible web services, while the licence situation is unclear - all data you get at a reasonable price can only be used be the "windows only" software it comes with and most of the software can't be used with wine on linux (bought some "previous version/year before" streetmap packages cheap on ebay and most of them showed rather strange results) - data you get in a documented format is far to expensive (just the city of Frankfurt was at about several 10k ?) at that point i was thinking about a different way to get better data i ended up in - use a GPS to get data - provide a framework for people to share data - provide the city i live in for others - hope that other people provide data for areas i need - use some GPL like licence for the data (sounds just like OSM that wasn't there at that time) the goals where to - provide data for FOSS developers to do something like roadmap for Europe, give them vector data instead of bitmap backgrounds for programs like gpsdrive, extend the scope of BBBike to my area etc. - provide people with free data to draw maps for websites or publications (with the thought to use that also as some kind of advertising to attract more people to the project) as there where several cases of people that got reminders by lawyers for using map images of free (like beer) webservices on there pages (in Germany the person who gets the reminder has to pay the lawyers costs and thats calculated depending on the assumed high damage by the wrongdoing) - as an "ultimate goal" - scratch at the monopoly of digital map distributors and the monopoly of MS as a desktop OpSys by providing just another desktop application to alternative Operating Systems while gathering data, i was looking for similar projects and found - FREEMAP (http://www.freemap.nett.org/) they tried the same for Oslo, but that project seems to have stopped in 2000 - Sandspur (http://www.peter-roosen.com/index.php?page=Projekte/Sandspur) had some discussion to find out about the intended licence but i found that too restrictive to attract the needed number of people some times later i found OSM with just the same idea of proceeding and licence. > > === The licence discussion > We already had the licence discussion in Jan. last year The licence proposals went from "public domain" to "CC-SA-NC" My personal opinion is still that free geodata needs a special licence, that covers things like printed maps or created bitmap images, but neither FSF nor CreativeCommons have the resouces to create one (at least when i talked to some representative last June), but both organisations see the need for a special licence. just to repeat some thoughts about the different licences: * public domain isn't possible in Germany and probably other countries as you can't give away your "moral right", you can only give away "rights of use" and "rights of distribution" * BSD like my personal concern about this is that "the big guys" just take the data and hide the required attribution somewhere in "about" or the documentation (just remember how the BSD-TCP stack and tools came into Win-NT and Win 3.11) * GPL whould have been my first choise, but it was written for software, not data. * CC same concerns as BSD * CC-SA for me thats the best compromise * CC-SA-NC think it's hard to draw a line, whats commercial and what isn't - distribute the data as a commercial product - think that clearly is - distribute the data as part of a commercial product - that forbids Linux distributors like SuSE or RedHat or BSD CDROM distributors to include the data - use the data to draw maps in commercial advertising - clearly is - use the data on a navigation system in a busines car or in a private car on a business trip (big question mark) > > === OSM as a commercial product > there are several reasons for me to object against making OSM commercial * the history - most of us came to OSM to create free (in both senses) geodata. i assume eCourier also contributed the data with this assumption * the current coverage is much to small to be successfuly used as commercial product * my personal situation - as stated above my idea was and is to create a free dataset - to participate in a commercial project (for-profit or not) has fiscal impacts - the permission to participate by my company is limited to not-for-profit "hobby" projects > > === funding OSM > Just a few ideas to collect money * most bigger opensource groups like the FSF collect donations and use this money to sponsor projects * Add a way to give direct donations to the wiki and the start page * As someone proposed in another mail, we could add some kind of "create a map image of a certain area to be used on websites" and this page shold have a donation link personally i'm willing to give some money to buy hardware and to pay hosting. Hardware I'm currently talking to people at my company to get some used hardware we have in our two old testing data centers and that will not be moved to the consolidated new test environment. (the hardware is currently for a limited time listed to be requested by other departments, after this time i can get some for a fixed price depending on processor speed/memory/disk space) ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From jo at frot.org Wed Feb 15 12:22:22 2006 From: jo at frot.org (Jo Walsh) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Please Help Petition for Public Access to Geodata in Europe In-Reply-To: <21135.193.163.1.105.1139998373.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> References: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> <21135.193.163.1.105.1139998373.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> Message-ID: <20060215122222.GD19013@vishnu.tridity.org> On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:12:53AM +0100, Preben Mikael Bohn wrote: > Could ypu please explain _exactly_ where in the actual proposal - located > at http://inspire.jrc.it/proposal/EN.pdf - you find arguments for the > above mentioned sentence: "entrench a policy of charging European citizens > to access public information they've already paid to collect"? If you look at http://publicgeodata.org/InspireTimeline you can see how the wording of the Directive has changed since this original draft, as it has gone through the co-decision process between the Commission and the Council. The version you looked at is the original proposal, the 26-7-2004 one. The "experience has shown us that making minimal services available to the public free of charge" passage in the preamble is gone now. http://register.consilium.eu.int/pdf/en/05/st10/st10553.en05.pdf is the version i am looking at on which the Council's commentary mentioning rights is based: http://register.consilium.eu.int/pdf/en/05/st12/st12064-re02ad01.en05.pdf Most telling is the list of different data services in what is Article 18 in the early draft you posted, and Article 11 in the draft that went through the first reading, discussing access data in different ways: a) discovery services, b) view services, c) download services, d) transformation services e) services allowing spatial data services to be invoked. [...whatever the latter actually do. they sound super meta] The INSPIRE draft (the one you looked at) used to say: [[ Member States shall ensure that the services referred to in Article 18(1)(a) and (b) are available to the public free of charge. ]] The INSPIRE draft that is starting on second reading now, says in same place: [[ 1. Member States shall ensure that: the services referred to in Article 11(1)(a) are available to the public free of charge; the services referred to in Article 11(1)(b) are, as a rule, available to the public free of charge. However, in cases where charges and/or licences are an essential precondition to maintain the spatial data sets and services or to fulfil requirements of already existing international spatial data infrastructure in a sustainable way, Member States may apply charges and/or licences either to the person providing the service to the public, or, where the service provider chooses, to the public itself. ]] INSPIRE used to, as you point out, guarantee free discovery and *viewing* of spatial data sets - not much use to data providers when it means having to invest in a web mapping infrastructure rather than an FTP site; not much use to use, when to build routing applications, we need vector data in machine-readable form, and GML and other spatial XML documents need to be downloaded in order to be viewed. The new wording now suggests that what some people call "cost-recovery", and what i would rather call "charging the public", is an *essential precondition* to some kinds of data distribution and collection. This is a blanket get-out clause in the interests of the people we know at state-run or until recently state-run data collecting agencies who are being squeezed into a commercial licensing policy over public geodata, thus squeezing value out of all the local government, small business and research activities that depend on that data. http://okfn.org/geo/pdf/Ordnance_Survey_Says_Dont_Mess_Up_Our_Maps.pdf This isn't what the drafters wanted; it's not what Europe needs. It's a shame that the information on the inspire.jrc.it site itself is so out of date and no longer tells European citizens accurate facts about how the description of their world is being brokered around them. I want http://publicgeodata.org to be more of a collaborative research resource, tho trying to balance two different languages against one another - on the one hand something that will engage and convince technical professionals - on the other something that will convince citizens in general that this is a much deeper issue than its niche technical presentation as a directive might suggest - that's hard. :/ http://publicgeodata.org/ActOnInspire is more my home node for research. > "(16) Experience in the Member States has shown that it is important, for > the successful implementation of an infrastructure for spatial > information, that a minimum number of services be made available to the > public free of charge. Member States should therefore make available, as a > minimum and free of charge, the services for discovering and viewing > spatial data sets." This statement just disappeared from what is going into second reading now. -jo From garaolaza at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 16:47:06 2006 From: garaolaza at gmail.com (Gari Araolaza) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Please Help Petition for Public Access to Geodata in Europe In-Reply-To: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> References: <20060215021436.GC19013@vishnu.tridity.org> Message-ID: On 2/15/06, Jo Walsh wrote: > dear openstreetmap list, > > Please sign the petition: http://petition.publicgeodata.org/ Doing our bit. A friend translated the text into Spanish and Basque at Public Geo Data and we also got it posted on the Spanish Slashdot-like site Barrapunto: http://barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/15/1621213&mode=thread Gari From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Wed Feb 15 19:37:16 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Bug in JOSM 1.1 Message-ID: <3189.62.158.91.170.1140032236.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hello JOSM users, Before you download JOSM 1.1, consider reading http://blog.eigenheimstrasse.de/?p=40 and download http://www.eigenheimstrasse.de/josm/josm-snapshot-54.jar instead. ;-) Ciao, Imi. From erjohan at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 07:14:51 2006 From: erjohan at gmail.com (Erik Johansson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [Openstreetmap-dev] Cache the whole world. In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <23011.80.246.32.40.1139936440.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <2044.62.158.124.82.1139956354.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <62517.80.246.32.40.1139996644.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: On 2/16/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > The 48 hours is the worst kind of compromise. It's too long when > updates are made, and it's too short when no updates are made. > What we need is a way to invalidate the cache on updates. Then > the expiration time can be set to two weeks, months or years. > I don't see any trac ticket for this need. I was almost certain > it had been suggested already. Should I add a ticket? Wasn't it > mentioned that Squid has some API for this? Yes squid has an API and the track number is #121 as you discovered. ;-) The biggest problem is that no one has written a "this lat/lon belongs to these tiles" tool. The other problem with invalidating is that there are lots of zoom levels. Why not disabling the Landsat for zoom 16,17,18, or completly? I'm not even sure you need landsat for zoom 15. Do we really need zoom level 16,17,18? Zoom 16 is a about the same as the best from other maping services in Sweden. E.g. moving half a screen in 16[1], will move the viewpoint by 0.013 and 0.04 degrees. That's ~250 meters in Sweden, do we really need a better zoom? [1] If you need to test this use where things are cached: http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=59.30732358896654&lon=18.040325953125&zoom=14 http://kartor.eniro.se/query?what=map&mop=mc&streetname=liljeholmen%2C+stockholm&streetnumber=&city=&zipcode=&mapstate=5%3B1627310%3B6578463%3B0%3B1624449%3B6580751%3B1630173%3B6576176%3B&mapcomp=%3B%3B%3BLiljeholmen%3B%3B%3B11761%3BStockholm%3B%3B%3B%3B%3B1625907.0%3B6579084.0%3B0%3B0%3B0.0000%3B0.0000%3Bmaps_place.42254.21&search_word=&where=&header_code=&heading=&heading_group=&selected_header_code=&company_name=&dir_area=&geo_area=&district_code=&ns=&stq=0&ax=&pis=&click_id=&symbols=&layers=&map.x=251&map.y=217 -- /Erik From lars at aronsson.se Thu Feb 16 07:42:47 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [geo-discuss] Another license for geodata: PGL (Public Geodata License) In-Reply-To: <43F096D7.9080202@ccgis.de> References: <43F09258.3050308@camptocamp.com> <43F096D7.9080202@ccgis.de> Message-ID: Arnulf Christl wrote: > you might want to have a look into this regarding licensing > issues. Sorry if it arrives here doubled and crossed. I summarized this at http://www.openstreetmap.org/wiki/index.php/PGL Does anybody use this license already? What kind and amount of geodata is available under the GPL today? -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From dave at earth.li Thu Feb 16 08:21:53 2006 From: dave at earth.li (David Sheldon) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [Openstreetmap-dev] Cache the whole world. In-Reply-To: References: <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <23011.80.246.32.40.1139936440.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <2044.62.158.124.82.1139956354.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <62517.80.246.32.40.1139996644.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <20060216082152.GR8436@ox.compsoc.net> On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 08:14:51AM +0100, Erik Johansson wrote: > The other problem with invalidating is that there are lots of zoom > levels. Why not disabling the Landsat for zoom 16,17,18, or completly? > I'm not even sure you need landsat for zoom 15. Given that the landsat for zoom 15-18 is just a scaled version of that for zoom 14, I think the best way would be to make all of the clients use the zoom 14 landsat tile, and scale it themselves. At zoom 17 a single zoom 14 tile should cover the whole screen, thus reducing the number of tile requests, and limiting it to those already cached at the earlier zoom. Does anyone know if there will be problems with projections and making them line up with the streets/gpx points? For the slippy map a precurser to this would be to work out how to use transparent PNGs for the streets. This could allow us to have the clients request the landsat from NASA which I think we've looked at before. David -- If you give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Thu Feb 16 08:54:05 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Cache the whole world. In-Reply-To: References: <20060213165812.77386.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <23011.80.246.32.40.1139936440.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <2044.62.158.124.82.1139956354.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <62517.80.246.32.40.1139996644.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <34313.80.246.32.40.1140080045.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi moved to dev again.. > The biggest problem is that no one has written a "this lat/lon belongs > to these tiles" tool. I don't understand the problem... Aren't the tiles given by lat/lon boundaries? Almost every WMS map server take this as url parameter (in fact, OSM seems to be the only I've seen using something like center+zoom). Ciao, Imi. From steve at asklater.com Thu Feb 16 12:53:29 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] The bigger picture In-Reply-To: <57990.80.246.32.40.1139938066.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <1f2301c63106$2fc9d8c0$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140355v703acc3cr90dc8522c9b3f6bc@mail.gmail.com> <41845.80.246.32.40.1139926647.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140629u370ba919w41c50bd1b6a4b5a9@mail.gmail.com> <36338.80.246.32.40.1139929287.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> <16e8cf860602140743l5742accdq7988425147e20f54@mail.gmail.com> <00c001c63186$66a69650$6475a8c0@xp1> <16e8cf860602140857m68dcfd45y4f0356318b6a6753@mail.gmail.com> <57990.80.246.32.40.1139938066.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <20060216125329.GA29273@asklater.com> * @ 14/02/06 05:27:46 PM immanuel.scholz@gmx.de wrote: > Hi again, > > > > For example, it's currently not possible to get the tile renderer to > > produce images bigger than the current tile size. It would be nice to > > offer bigger images but we don't for performance reasons. > > I am not sure about this is for performance reason.. It is. Some requests for large areas really hammer our under-specced database machine. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Feb 16 21:57:40 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Anyone help me identify the publication year for these maps? In-Reply-To: <20060216125329.GA29273@asklater.com> Message-ID: Hi all. I've come into a set of maps which might be of use to OSM and then on the other hand depending upon what anyone can tell me about them they might be of no use whatsoever. Anyway here goes. The set comprises 19 folded sheets and I have all 19 in their original box. Although the box is now falling apart the maps are in pretty good condition (cotton backed). The area covered is England and Wales. Each map in the set of 19 covers a different area, area 1 being the north east of England and area 19 is Kent. Each map is 30.5 inches by 40 inches at a scale of two inches to the mile. Each sheet is then divided into 5 mile squares. There is no date of publication, just that they are: "Geographia" Two Miles To One Inch Map of England & Wales (In 19 Sheets) By Alexander Gross. F.R.G.S I did a Google search but it came up blank. The maps were obtained by my Grandfather, sometime around the second world war we think. My mother thinks they were given to him, possibly when he was stationed in Ireland. No idea if they were new when he got them originally. My guess is they date from no earlier than the 30'S. Hence my interest as they might be close to being out of copyright perhaps. I am travelling this week (mapping swaffham in Norfolk in case anyone is interested - done half in a couple of morning cycle trips) so hence I have limited ability to search more myself or send this to more appropriate mailing list . Would like to give my mother some info on the maps before I leave at the weekend so any help appreciated. Please forward to any other lists you think might help. Cheers, Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk From john at technolalia.org Fri Feb 17 09:01:24 2006 From: john at technolalia.org (john levin) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Anyone help me identify the publication year for these maps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F590E4.6050301@technolalia.org> Andy Robinson wrote: > Hi all. > > I've come into a set of maps which might be of use to OSM and then on > the other hand depending upon what anyone can tell me about them they > might be of no use whatsoever. Anyway here goes. > > The set comprises 19 folded sheets and I have all 19 in their original > box. Although the box is now falling apart the maps are in pretty good > condition (cotton backed). > The british Library catalogue has a number of entires for maps by Alexander Gross, published by Geographica Ltd. They date from around 1913; for example: http://tinyurl.com/d5qwj HTH John From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Fri Feb 17 15:08:55 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit Message-ID: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Folks I'm looking for a new GPS unit but having read the GPS Reviews section on the wiki there isn't a clear and obvious choice, so I thought I'd ask here. Firstly I guess I should state my needs: 1 Obviously I want it to generate track logs that I can upload to OSM. 2 I have a bicycle, I'd like to be able to use it with that. 3 I also have a car. While SatNav is not a mandatory requirement don't rule it out. Tom-Toms look like very desirable pieces of equipment. 4 I'm a skier. I'd intend to track ski lifts and pistes. That means a battery life of 8+ hours (for a full day's skiing), good sensitivity to altitude, good sensitivity when worn (or maybe in a pocket?) and robust enough to cope with the occasional wipeout (caused by the piste suddenly changing direction you understand). I have a laptop with USB and bluetooth, which I would be able to upload to at the end of each day. 5 I do some hiking. I'd like to be able to record track logs when hiking but also be able to use it as a navigation aid. 6 I never, never go near boats so marine navigation is not a requirement! 7 Rechargable batteries would be a desirable and environmentally good thing for it to have. 8 Price is not a constraint. >From what I've seen so far the RoyalTek BlueGPS might be the kind of thing I should go for although probably not much use as a navigation aid. What would people recommend that would meet the above needs? Etienne From simon at rumble.net Fri Feb 17 15:18:26 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 17/2/2006, "Etienne Cherdlu" wrote: >I'm looking for a new GPS unit but having read the GPS Reviews section >on the wiki there isn't a clear and obvious choice, so I thought I'd >ask here. A Symbian smartphone and Bluetooth GPS works very nicely for me (or did until I lost my phone last week). You get the flexibility of being able to run any software you like, unlike a hardware GPS. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Fri Feb 17 16:22:54 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3651.62.158.118.223.1140193374.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, >>I'm looking for a new GPS unit but having read the GPS Reviews section >>on the wiki there isn't a clear and obvious choice, so I thought I'd >>ask here. > > A Symbian smartphone and Bluetooth GPS works very nicely for me (or did > until I lost my phone last week). You get the flexibility of being able > to run any software you like, unlike a hardware GPS. Hey, if you want flexibility of software installation, grab a Tom Tom or a Zaurus featuring CF-GPS card. :-) But "robust" is something different :) Ciao, Imi. From steve at asklater.com Fri Feb 17 16:57:22 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:35 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] ads Message-ID: <20060217165722.GA13237@asklater.com> I've added unobtrusive ads at the bottom of the page that only get shown if you login. It's a trial, and I have no idea if they'll generate any money but we'll see. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Fri Feb 17 18:11:26 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] ads In-Reply-To: <20060217165722.GA13237@asklater.com> References: <20060217165722.GA13237@asklater.com> Message-ID: <8fcd02310602171011y2141ac8ck3c9d8c148e90a8ab@mail.gmail.com> I think you mean: ...only get shown if you *don't* log in... :) And I meant to send this to the mailing list not to Steve :( On 2/17/06, SteveC wrote: > > I've added unobtrusive ads at the bottom of the page that only get shown > if you login. It's a trial, and I have no idea if they'll generate any > money but we'll see. > > have fun, > > SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ > > _______________________________________________ > Openstreetmap mailing list > Openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk > http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060217/eb36def7/attachment.htm From frank at hebbert.com Fri Feb 17 21:19:18 2006 From: frank at hebbert.com (Frank Hebbert) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060217211918.GA26803@kiko.local> Etienne Cherdlu, Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 03:08:55PM +0000: > From what I've seen so far the RoyalTek BlueGPS might be the kind of > thing I should go for although probably not much use as a navigation > aid. I have one, I think it is pretty good. I use it for all the uses you listed except skiing and car navigation. My main gripe is the poor software for configuring it (Windows only too). And there is no indication of the memory having reached capacity - so I fret that tracks are not being recorded towards the end of long trips. Frank From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 17 22:02:50 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Anyone help me identify the publication year for these maps? In-Reply-To: <43F590E4.6050301@technolalia.org> Message-ID: Thanks John, Doing a more specific search on the bi index revealed a publication date of 1919 to 1930. Here is the link to the only matching record I found: http://tinyurl.com/adugq Andy -----Original Message----- From: john levin [mailto:john@technolalia.org] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:01 AM To: Andy Robinson Cc: openstreetmap@vr.ucl.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Anyone help me identify the publication year for these maps? Andy Robinson wrote: > Hi all. > > I've come into a set of maps which might be of use to OSM and then on > the other hand depending upon what anyone can tell me about them they > might be of no use whatsoever. Anyway here goes. > > The set comprises 19 folded sheets and I have all 19 in their original > box. Although the box is now falling apart the maps are in pretty good > condition (cotton backed). > The british Library catalogue has a number of entires for maps by Alexander Gross, published by Geographica Ltd. They date from around 1913; for example: http://tinyurl.com/d5qwj HTH John From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Sat Feb 18 14:07:44 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fcd02310602180607w60280da6neb86b38da1561dc@mail.gmail.com> Thanks everyone who responded. All the comments were helpful. I've done a fair bit of surfing and I'm probably more confused and overloaded with information than before I started. What I think I really want is a SiRF StarIII based bluetooth data logger. The RoyalTek BlueGPS is close to what I need but its only got a SiRF StarII chipset. I may hold off until RoyalTek (or someone else) comes up with something that has the new chipset. Once again, thanks everyone. Etienne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060218/2fec2390/attachment.html From zebmason at f2s.com Sat Feb 18 14:31:02 2006 From: zebmason at f2s.com (Zebedee Mason) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43F72FA6.3090808@f2s.com> Etienne I think one of the new Garmin GPS Map CSx units could be what you are looking for, especially considering the price;-) They have a SirfStarIII chip and barometric altimeters (I get a good correlation between my tracks and SRTM data using a barometric altimeter). I currently use an Edge 305 having upgraded from an eTrex Vista and find it a lot nicer having the Sirf chip but I do find the lack of navigation functionality a bit of a pain. One thing to bear in mind is the cold weather performance of batteries. I found that cycling around at about 2 Celcius that I'd be stopping to fish the batteries out of the eTrex and put them in my armpit to re-activate them. Not noticed anything similar with the sealed battery unit inside the Edge. Zeb -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 27/09/2005 From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 18 14:58:38 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] moving things Message-ID: <20060218145838.GA25163@asklater.com> Have moved things around to the VM supplied by bytemark: /news/ -> http://www.opengeodata.org/ /wiki/ -> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/ /trac/ -> http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ /svn -> http://svn.openstreetmap.org/ (this one doesn't redirect) DNS may take a few hours yet to update and I'm waiting on that before fixing trac (broken right now) and moving the mailing lists. So, if your spam filter depends on mailing list addresses, make sure it accepts stuff to talk@openstreetmap.org and dev@openstreetmap.org have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From f_mohr at yahoo.de Sat Feb 18 15:36:30 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] Advice on purchasing a new GPS unit In-Reply-To: <43F72FA6.3090808@f2s.com> References: <8fcd02310602170708l5cd118bahe94d9f788a8b9109@mail.gmail.com> <43F72FA6.3090808@f2s.com> Message-ID: <43F73EFE.1050709@yahoo.de> Zebedee Mason wrote: > Etienne > > I think one of the new Garmin GPS Map CSx units could be what you are > looking for, especially considering the price;-) They have a SirfStarIII > chip and barometric altimeters (I get a good correlation between my > tracks and SRTM data using a barometric altimeter). I currently use an > Edge 305 having upgraded from an eTrex Vista and find it a lot nicer > having the Sirf chip but I do find the lack of navigation functionality > a bit of a pain. one coworker uses a GPSMAP 60CSx as a navigation system on his motorbike. he's content with it, but the the directions descriptions are a bit poor (something like "in 50m enter the autobahn 61" but without indication in which direction) ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From simon at zymurgy.org Sat Feb 18 20:51:30 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] moving things In-Reply-To: <20060218145838.GA25163@asklater.com> References: <20060218145838.GA25163@asklater.com> Message-ID: <43F788D2.9080308@zymurgy.org> SteveC wrote: > Have moved things around to the VM supplied by bytemark: wiki editing isn't working wiki categories aren't working but on the positive side, the tile server now appears to be functioning better than it has done in weeks. Is this co-incidence? -- Simon Hewison From steve at asklater.com Sat Feb 18 21:48:19 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [Openstreetmap] moving things In-Reply-To: <43F788D2.9080308@zymurgy.org> References: <20060218145838.GA25163@asklater.com> <43F788D2.9080308@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: <20060218214819.GA28481@asklater.com> * @ 18/02/06 08:51:30 PM simon@zymurgy.org wrote: > SteveC wrote: > >Have moved things around to the VM supplied by bytemark: > > wiki editing isn't working fixed > wiki categories aren't working fixed > but on the positive side, the tile server now appears to be functioning > better than it has done in weeks. Is this co-incidence? See Mikels post. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Sun Feb 19 16:42:39 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] ftp bits Message-ID: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com> freethepostcode could do with being rewritten in to a rails app by someone. I've made a little stats script: http://www.freethepostcode.org/stats.html to help coordinate some of the data gathering. Simon is way out in the lead :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From dave at earth.li Sun Feb 19 17:01:23 2006 From: dave at earth.li (David Sheldon) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] ftp bits In-Reply-To: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com> References: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060219170123.GB8436@ox.compsoc.net> On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 04:42:39PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > freethepostcode could do with being rewritten in to a rails app by > someone. I've made a little stats script: > > http://www.freethepostcode.org/stats.html I'm not sure about the stat for "missing" postcodes. According to http://bitter.ukcod.org.uk/~chris/postcodeine/ there appear to be no postcodes starting OX2 1, OX2 2, OX2 3 or OX2 4 so the stats saying that there are 5 missing in OX2 appears to be wrong, we are only actually missing OX2 5xx. Unfortunately there probably isn't a free list of postcodes that don't exist, so I'm not sure what the value of this chart actually is. David -- "All extremists should be taken out and shot." -- Robin Stevens, oxbridge.tat From steve at asklater.com Sun Feb 19 17:05:57 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] ftp bits In-Reply-To: <20060219170123.GB8436@ox.compsoc.net> References: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com> <20060219170123.GB8436@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <20060219170557.GC6392@asklater.com> * @ 19/02/06 05:01:23 PM dave@earth.li wrote: > On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 04:42:39PM +0000, SteveC wrote: > > freethepostcode could do with being rewritten in to a rails app by > > someone. I've made a little stats script: > > > > http://www.freethepostcode.org/stats.html > > I'm not sure about the stat for "missing" postcodes. > > According to http://bitter.ukcod.org.uk/~chris/postcodeine/ there appear > to be no postcodes starting OX2 1, OX2 2, OX2 3 or OX2 4 so the stats > saying that there are 5 missing in OX2 appears to be wrong, we are only > actually missing OX2 5xx. > > Unfortunately there probably isn't a free list of postcodes that don't > exist, so I'm not sure what the value of this chart actually is. Good point, Guess it's only indicative then. If you have any better ideas on how to coordinate things... maybe spatially is the way to go. That is, a map with red and green squares a km across that are green if they contain a postcode or not. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From barry at barryhunter.co.uk Sun Feb 19 18:17:27 2006 From: barry at barryhunter.co.uk (Barry Hunter) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] ftp bits References: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com><20060219170123.GB8436@ox.compsoc.net> <20060219170557.GC6392@asklater.com> Message-ID: <002501c63580$be1e9880$0200a8c0@Xyanda> You can in fact download the full list of valid UK postcodes from: http://www.geopostcode.com/ukpc2ttn.htm look for the 'DOWNLOAD THE FULL POSTCODES LIST WITH NEAR 1.9 MILLION RECORDS' link. However before some get excited its only the codes themselves you get, no other information, such as town or location. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "SteveC" To: "David Sheldon" Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] ftp bits >* @ 19/02/06 05:01:23 PM dave@earth.li wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 04:42:39PM +0000, SteveC wrote: >> > freethepostcode could do with being rewritten in to a rails app by >> > someone. I've made a little stats script: >> > >> > http://www.freethepostcode.org/stats.html >> >> I'm not sure about the stat for "missing" postcodes. >> >> According to http://bitter.ukcod.org.uk/~chris/postcodeine/ there appear >> to be no postcodes starting OX2 1, OX2 2, OX2 3 or OX2 4 so the stats >> saying that there are 5 missing in OX2 appears to be wrong, we are only >> actually missing OX2 5xx. >> >> Unfortunately there probably isn't a free list of postcodes that don't >> exist, so I'm not sure what the value of this chart actually is. > > Good point, Guess it's only indicative then. > > If you have any better ideas on how to coordinate things... maybe > spatially is the way to go. That is, a map with red and green squares a > km across that are green if they contain a postcode or not. > > have fun, > > SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > From daniel.taylor at danielt.com Sun Feb 19 18:28:20 2006 From: daniel.taylor at danielt.com (Daniel Taylor) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] new to the list Message-ID: <43F8B8C4.2010001@danielt.com> Hello, I'm new to the project and really love the idea of it, I've just got my driving license and was looking for a FOSS navigation system, which of course doesn't exist and probably won't for a long while. But i really like the idea of this project and will be doing some GPS work when i get my garmin USB cable delivered (why don't laptops have serial ports anymore?). I am aware that you have finished logging all the motorways in the mainland UK, i just wondered if you knew about this site: www.cbrd.co.uk; It holds a motorway database that lists all the motorways plus where they start, finish, what towns they pass, length, what other motorways terminate on it, what motorways spur from it and what motorways it meets. Also with an amazing list/diagram of each and every exit/junction on the motorway. They also have a nice list of the A roads and B roads (not in as much detail at the motorways i don't think). As any work been done on navigation using the data which has been collected? Since the data now contains all the motorways, surely it should be possible to say 'i want to go from Leeds to Liverpool' (for example) and it ('it'; a program that would be made) could say what motorways needed to used? and then expand from there when more data about A/B roads etc. is gathered? keep up the good work, - Daniel From f_mohr at yahoo.de Sun Feb 19 21:20:32 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Problem uploading Images Message-ID: <43F8E120.8040409@yahoo.de> i tried to upload some images to illustrate street classification and tram trails 2 uploads worked fine, but now i get Warning: mkdir(/var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/b/b0): Permission denied in /var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/includes/Image.php on line 726 Warning: move_uploaded_file(/var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/b/b0/Dscf0174_600.jpg): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/includes/SpecialUpload.php on line 316 Warning: move_uploaded_file(): Unable to move '/tmp/phpJMx3Ux' to '/var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/images/b/b0/Dscf0174_600.jpg' in /var/www/wiki.openstreetmap.org/includes/SpecialUpload.php on line 316 ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From simon at zymurgy.org Sun Feb 19 21:32:15 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] ftp bits In-Reply-To: <002501c63580$be1e9880$0200a8c0@Xyanda> References: <20060219164239.GA6392@asklater.com><20060219170123.GB8436@ox.compsoc.net> <20060219170557.GC6392@asklater.com> <002501c63580$be1e9880$0200a8c0@Xyanda> Message-ID: <43F8E3DF.7080303@zymurgy.org> Barry Hunter wrote: > > You can in fact download the full list of valid UK postcodes from: > http://www.geopostcode.com/ukpc2ttn.htm look for the 'DOWNLOAD THE FULL > POSTCODES LIST WITH NEAR 1.9 MILLION RECORDS' link. > However before some get excited its only the codes themselves you get, > no other information, such as town or location. And even that will be out of date the minute it's published, and the data is almost definitely copyright Royal Mail. Every time someone goes and registers a PO Box address, the Royal Mail often creates a postcode for that po box (although it will be missing the geographic location, for obvious reasons). If you've ever had dealings with the Address Management section of Royal Mail, you'll probably find the data licence agreements can be rather draconian. That said, pretty much everything is possible, at a price, which is normally not affordable. -- Simon Hewison From lars at aronsson.se Mon Feb 20 00:49:19 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Bad tracks around Kalmar-Oskarshamn, Sweden Message-ID: Apart from myself and Sxpert, who has been adding tracks to E22 in south-east Sweden? These tracks look like very low precision and add more confusion than guidance. Did something go wrong in the conversion to GPX? Could these errors be cleared up, or the track removed? Was it one track or several, and are some good, some bad? Is this related to the tracks of Blomsterm?la and M?nster?s? I really wish I could right-click on a yellow mark to find out which track this is, and who uploaded it. One such erroneous point is close to lat=57.234214415657505 lon=16.439206703125 where the road goes north-south at lon=16.43678205859375, so the bad track is 0.0024 degrees off here. But sometimes it is a lot closer, and makes the road appear as if it were a motorway. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From f_mohr at yahoo.de Mon Feb 20 10:28:42 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] street categories Message-ID: <43F999DA.6030809@yahoo.de> now that i've uploaded and edited most of my archived tracks, i'm starting to add labels. to get things consistent: how do you select the street classifications primary/secondary? by street conditions (width/paving) or by importance (like primary -> road that connects to the next city, secondary -> only in town traffic) ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Mon Feb 20 10:37:23 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] street categories Message-ID: >now that i've uploaded and edited most of my archived tracks, >i'm starting to add labels. >to get things consistent: >how do you select the street classifications primary/secondary? >by street conditions (width/paving) or by importance >(like primary -> road that connects to the next city, >secondary -> only in town traffic) I use keys/values to do this. The scheme I use (and which Freemap and osmeditor understand) is to use the "class", "foot", "bike", "car" and "horse" keys: "class" relates to the class (importance) of the road, it may be: path unsurfaced residential minor secondary primary motorway railway foot, bike, horse and car relate to access: can that type of traffic access the road/path? "foot", "bike" and "horse" can be either "yes", "unofficial" or "no". "car" can be either "yes" or "no". The default for all of these is "no", i.e. you can define a footpath with 'class=path; foot=yes' without having to specify bike, horse or car. Nick From steve at asklater.com Mon Feb 20 13:38:12 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 13:53:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight workshop Message-ID: <20060220133812.GA17078@asklater.com> Yes, it's happening. Please redistribute: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Workshop What: Isle of Wight mapping workshop and general get together for OpenStreetMap.org fans where we plan to map the entire Isle using GPS on cars, cycling and by foot. This is our first official meetup and will result in a released map of the Isle of Wight. When: Friday 5th to Sunday 7th May. Cottage probably booked 30th April -> 7th May and all welcome at any point. Where: Isle of Wight, off the south English coast: http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=50.688627413475814&lon=-1.376037&zoom=11 Who: You? I need 50 GBP non-refundable deposit per person for cottage by the 27th Feb ideally. Once booked we can add people an upgrade the cottage size. You can attend for free, of course, but without a cottage we have no base for things like computers so please stay with us :-) Final cost for accomodation likely to be between 60-100 GBP depending on sponsorship and numbers. Paypal steve@asklater.com with 4% added for paypal charges or email for bank or cheque details. People welcome to crash on the floor if space available. Sponsorship: I'm going to people asking for sponsorship of car rental, accomodation, food, GPS units etc. If you can provide sponsorship or know someone who can then get in touch. Details, details: Please update the wiki with travel info, offer lifts, equipment you'll be bringing, etc. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From thomas at walraet.com Mon Feb 20 16:50:39 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:49:54 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] street categories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F9F35F.3020209@walraet.com> Nick Whitelegg a ?crit : > >> now that i've uploaded and edited most of my archived tracks, >> i'm starting to add labels. >> [..] > > I use keys/values to do this. [..] You add those labels to each segment of roads ? I didn't even give names to my roads because I don't want to re-do it when OSM will manage streets (as collection of segments or list of nodes, we didn't even know) From f_mohr at yahoo.de Mon Feb 20 17:31:41 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (frank mohr) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:31:43 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight workshop In-Reply-To: <20060220133812.GA17078@asklater.com> Message-ID: <20060220173141.48375.qmail@web25712.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --- SteveC wrote: > When: > Friday 5th to Sunday 7th May. Cottage probably booked 30th April -> > 7th > May and all welcome at any point. bad .. that overlaps with the Linuxtag (Linux Expo) 3rd - 6th May I already agreed to be there at the Dante (german TeX User Group) booth for some days frank __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From steve at asklater.com Mon Feb 20 17:44:31 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:44:49 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight workshop Message-ID: <20060220174431.GH20623@asklater.com> >--- SteveC wrote: >> When: >> Friday 5th to Sunday 7th May. Cottage probably booked 30th April -> >> 7th >> May and all welcome at any point. > >bad .. that overlaps with the Linuxtag (Linux Expo) 3rd - 6th May >I already agreed to be there at the Dante (german TeX User Group) >booth for some days > >frank You didn't respond to the meetomatic request: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-February/002371.html :-( have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From nick at hogweed.org Mon Feb 20 22:15:01 2006 From: nick at hogweed.org (nick@hogweed.org) Date: Mon Feb 20 22:13:03 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] street categories In-Reply-To: <43F9F35F.3020209@walraet.com> References: <43F9F35F.3020209@walraet.com> Message-ID: <200602202215.01125.nick@hogweed.org> > You add those labels to each segment of roads ? > > I didn't even give names to my roads because I don't want to re-do it > when OSM will manage streets (as collection of segments or list of > nodes, we didn't even know) Well I wanted to display different types of roads and paths on Freemap straight away so I decided to annotate the segments with the keys/values. Have also spent much of the last two years collecting footpath/bridleway data and didn't want to lose that info when I put it into OSM.... When streets are done I'm sure I can do an automated conversion so that the street takes the type of all the segments making up the street. Nick From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Tue Feb 21 12:29:31 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Tue Feb 21 12:30:20 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] new editor applet pushed Message-ID: <20060221122931.93959.qmail@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've made some changes to the Editor Applet, in how tiles are requested. If you're seeing no gpx or landsat tiles loading, you may need to restart your browser and clear the Java cache (the old applet could be cached). The editor is now requesting tiles directly from the landsat cache and the gpx tile script (through squid). This bypasses mapserver altogether, and should speed things up a bit on tile. The gpx tracks may look a bit different - when they were previously passed through mapserver, the image was processed a bit. If you notice any other problems, post to the list. -Mikel From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Tue Feb 21 17:37:47 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Tue Feb 21 17:38:24 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] dev/landsat machine down Message-ID: <20060221173747.2387.qmail@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The machine hosting landsat tiles and dev accounts has gone down. Steve won't be able to physically check it out until tomorrow. The biggest result will be lack of landsat backgrounds on new slipply map tiles, and editor tiles. If things don't look better by tomorrow morning, I'll reconfigure tiles to request landsat tiles directly from OnEarth, rather than through the cache on dev. -Mikel From mikkel at tdx.dk Wed Feb 22 00:36:01 2006 From: mikkel at tdx.dk (Mikkel Mondrup Kristensen) Date: Wed Feb 22 00:36:29 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] OSM and Denmark Message-ID: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> Hi guys I am recently started mapping in Denmark, mostly Roskilde but i take my gps where i can and i can se there are some tracks and would like to know if there anyone else mapping here? I know lars talked about a talk in Denmark on a SSLUG mailing list and i would like to see if we could get some more people to make tracks and maps. Do you have a IRC channel or just mailing list and wiki? Mikkel Mondrup Kristensen From sxpert at esitcom.org Wed Feb 22 05:50:15 2006 From: sxpert at esitcom.org (Raphael Jacquot) Date: Wed Feb 22 05:49:45 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] OSM and Denmark In-Reply-To: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> References: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> Message-ID: <43FBFB97.7000906@esitcom.org> Mikkel Mondrup Kristensen wrote: > Hi guys > I am recently started mapping in Denmark, mostly Roskilde but i take my > gps where i can and i can se there are some tracks and would like to > know if there anyone else mapping here? > I know lars talked about a talk in Denmark on a SSLUG mailing list and i > would like to see if we could get some more people to make tracks and > maps. > Do you have a IRC channel or just mailing list and wiki? > > Mikkel Mondrup Kristensen I did some tracks there on a trip to Legoland ;D From ovidiu at mybox.ro Wed Feb 22 15:42:20 2006 From: ovidiu at mybox.ro (Ovidiu Constantin) Date: Wed Feb 22 15:43:00 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets Message-ID: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all, I'm from Bucharest/Romania and I'm tracking Bucharest (still learning). I don't use the online applet (firefox+java on my Ubuntu don't mix well) - I use josm. I have this problem: I tracked (parts of) a large bouleverd, with 3 lanes on each direction, and 2 tram tracks and some trees in the middle. This leads to 2 different "streets" on the map: http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=44.41990255589901&lon=26.142213828125&zoom=14 Is this acceptable? Is there a way to "join" two parallel streets? 10x, Ovidiu PS: I'm using a Asus A636 PDA (with a SirfIII gps chip) and a serial port logger, the combination seems to work fine. -- This message was scanned for spam and viruses by BitDefender. For more information please visit http://www.bitdefender.com/ From sxpert at esitcom.org Wed Feb 22 16:09:16 2006 From: sxpert at esitcom.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl_Jacquot?=) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:06:26 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43FC8CAC.4000102@esitcom.org> Ovidiu Constantin wrote: > Hi all, I'm from Bucharest/Romania and I'm tracking Bucharest (still > learning). I don't use the online applet (firefox+java on my Ubuntu > don't mix well) - I use josm. > > I have this problem: I tracked (parts of) a large bouleverd, with 3 > lanes on each direction, and 2 tram tracks and some trees in the middle. > This leads to 2 different "streets" on the map: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=44.41990255589901&lon=26.142213828125&zoom=14 > > Is this acceptable? Is there a way to "join" two parallel streets? well, guess this is normal, as you have tram tracks in the middle that act as a street separation. > 10x, > Ovidiu > > PS: I'm using a Asus A636 PDA (with a SirfIII gps chip) and a serial > port logger, the combination seems to work fine. > > > > From simon at zymurgy.org Wed Feb 22 16:16:38 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:16:41 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43FC8E66.6060305@zymurgy.org> Ovidiu Constantin wrote: > Hi all, I'm from Bucharest/Romania and I'm tracking Bucharest (still > learning). I don't use the online applet (firefox+java on my Ubuntu > don't mix well) - I use josm. > > I have this problem: I tracked (parts of) a large bouleverd, with 3 > lanes on each direction, and 2 tram tracks and some trees in the middle. > This leads to 2 different "streets" on the map: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=44.41990255589901&lon=26.142213828125&zoom=14 > > Is this acceptable? Is there a way to "join" two parallel streets? trees in the middle? Sounds like a dual carriageway to me because those trees are probably stopping you turning across the other lane. Leave it as two parallel street segments. At some point, someone will come up with a sensible way of defining one-way streets that everyone can agree upon, and you can label those segments accordingly. -- Simon Hewison From ovidiu at mybox.ro Wed Feb 22 16:16:48 2006 From: ovidiu at mybox.ro (Ovidiu Constantin) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:17:21 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FC8CAC.4000102@esitcom.org> References: <1140622940.8323.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43FC8CAC.4000102@esitcom.org> Message-ID: <1140625008.8323.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 17:09 +0100, Rapha?l Jacquot wrote: > > Is this acceptable? Is there a way to "join" two parallel streets? > > well, guess this is normal, as you have tram tracks in the middle > that > act as a street separation. In this case, yes. However, I also have streets that are large (3 lanes) but there's no physical separation. And If It happened that I was on lane 1 when I tracked the street (both ways), there's a distance between my tracks... What should I do? Trace the streen between them? Pick one of the tracks I made? Decisions, decisions :) -- This message was scanned for spam and viruses by BitDefender. For more information please visit http://www.bitdefender.com/ From simon at rumble.net Wed Feb 22 16:29:06 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:29:11 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FC8E66.6060305@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: On 22/2/2006, "Simon Hewison" wrote: >trees in the middle? Sounds like a dual carriageway to me because those >trees are probably stopping you turning across the other lane. > >Leave it as two parallel street segments. At some point, someone will >come up with a sensible way of defining one-way streets that everyone >can agree upon, and you can label those segments accordingly. This might work in this instance but what about other wide boulevards? Champs Elysee in Paris, for example? As you can see from the Landsat, the line down the middle doesn't give any indication that this is a HUGE road. And if you were to take GPS traces from both outside lanes, you would get two lines. http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=48.86999800064848&lon=2.30694&zoom=14 From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 22 16:49:37 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:49:53 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] dev/landsat machine down In-Reply-To: <20060221173747.2387.qmail@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060221173747.2387.qmail@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060222164937.GA20876@asklater.com> The story: Last night Mikel noticed that dev was down. I called to make sure nobody had touched it and then called network operations to see if it was blocked for some reason. Neither was the case. I asked someone to power cycle it but they said it was hot to the touch and smelt of burning plastic. I told them to leave it unplugged. Went to the machine today, took the case off and found that the PSU fan had died. Took the PSU to various electronics shops but it turned out to be some strange mini atx PSU and nobody stocked them. So had to buy new case, PSU and a backing fan. Then transplanted the machine from the old to new case (which took a while) and now the dev machine is back, alive and well. Hooray. * @ 21/02/06 05:37:47 PM mikel_maron@yahoo.com wrote: > The machine hosting landsat tiles and dev accounts has gone down. > Steve won't be able to physically check it out until tomorrow. > > The biggest result will be lack of landsat backgrounds on new slipply > map tiles, and editor tiles. > > If things don't look better by tomorrow morning, I'll reconfigure > tiles to request landsat tiles directly from OnEarth, rather than > through the cache on dev. > > -Mikel > > > > _______________________________________________ talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 22 16:49:44 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed Feb 22 16:49:59 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This problem arises many times when there is more than one travel lane in one direction. However in terms of mapping its actually a simple issue. Ideally you would put a route down that takes the centre of the three lanes. At some point in the future the line segments can then be tagged with a direction tag and if we wish a width tag or number of lanes tag. These will help client software to display the map features appropriately for a given scale. Someone will also add the tram lines at some point (two presumably) so the end result might be 4 lines, 2 each for each separate and divided road alignment and 2 more for the two tram lines (1 in each direction). Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >bounces@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Rev Simon Rumble >Sent: 22 February 2006 16:29 >To: simon@zymurgy.org; talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] About large streets > > >On 22/2/2006, "Simon Hewison" wrote: > >>trees in the middle? Sounds like a dual carriageway to me because those >>trees are probably stopping you turning across the other lane. >> >>Leave it as two parallel street segments. At some point, someone will >>come up with a sensible way of defining one-way streets that everyone >>can agree upon, and you can label those segments accordingly. > >This might work in this instance but what about other wide boulevards? >Champs Elysee in Paris, for example? As you can see from the Landsat, >the line down the middle doesn't give any indication that this is a >HUGE road. And if you were to take GPS traces from both outside lanes, >you would get two lines. > >http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=48.86999800064848&lon=2.30694&z >oom=14 > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk From thomas at walraet.com Wed Feb 22 17:06:10 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Wed Feb 22 17:05:29 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FC9A02.4060301@walraet.com> Rev Simon Rumble a ?crit : > > This might work in this instance but what about other wide boulevards? > Champs Elysee in Paris, for example? As you can see from the Landsat, > the line down the middle doesn't give any indication that this is a > HUGE road. And if you were to take GPS traces from both outside lanes, > you would get two lines. > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=48.86999800064848&lon=2.30694&zoom=14 I drew this :) I just want to point out that Champs Elysee is just 2 lanes up and 2 lanes down, without separation. (but it has huge sidewalks) (Ok, it's a bit pity that currently it appear smaller on OSM than a minor road with the 2 lanes separated) From simon at rumble.net Wed Feb 22 17:12:44 2006 From: simon at rumble.net (Rev Simon Rumble) Date: Wed Feb 22 17:12:50 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FC9A02.4060301@walraet.com> Message-ID: On 22/2/2006, "Thomas Walraet" wrote: >I just want to point out that Champs Elysee is just 2 lanes up and 2 >lanes down, without separation. (but it has huge sidewalks) That didn't ring true for me so I had a poke around for some photos: http://aris.ss.uci.edu/cogsci/personnel/kjameson/ParisPixs/Champs.jpg http://www.pbase.com/karibaer/image/34811291 That looks like five lanes each way to me, as well as little on/off ramps down to underground parking garages. From f_mohr at yahoo.de Wed Feb 22 17:15:22 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (frank mohr) Date: Wed Feb 22 17:15:29 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060222171522.71795.qmail@web25706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --- Rev Simon Rumble wrote: > Champs Elysee in Paris, for example? As you can see from the > Landsat, > the line down the middle doesn't give any indication that this is a > HUGE road. And if you were to take GPS traces from both outside > lanes, > you would get two lines. Champs Elysee has 5 lanes in each direction, without separation. I'd draw that as 1 line, with the label lanes="5+5" frank __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thomas at walraet.com Wed Feb 22 17:19:35 2006 From: thomas at walraet.com (Thomas Walraet) Date: Wed Feb 22 17:18:47 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FC9D27.2040002@walraet.com> Rev Simon Rumble a ?crit : > >> I just want to point out that Champs Elysee is just 2 lanes up and 2 >> lanes down, without separation. (but it has huge sidewalks) > > That looks like five lanes each way to me, as well as little on/off ramps > down to underground parking garages. ... How could I remember so wrong ? Sorry for the noise. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Feb 22 17:24:12 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Wed Feb 22 17:24:27 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For any future navigational use, and for how a final map might look, it is best to have even these very wide undivided highways as a single line running down the centre. It only looks odd at the moment because all the clients are drawing streets at a common width. Sidewalks/pavements are normally just extensions of the highway right-of-way and therefore IMO should not be drawn separately, regardless of width, except where there is no possibility to cross from the sidewalk to the road (i.e. it is divided off with a permanent barrier). Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >bounces@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Rev Simon Rumble >Sent: 22 February 2006 17:13 >To: thomas@walraet.com; talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] About large streets > > >On 22/2/2006, "Thomas Walraet" wrote: > >>I just want to point out that Champs Elysee is just 2 lanes up and 2 >>lanes down, without separation. (but it has huge sidewalks) > >That didn't ring true for me so I had a poke around for some photos: >http://aris.ss.uci.edu/cogsci/personnel/kjameson/ParisPixs/Champs.jpg >http://www.pbase.com/karibaer/image/34811291 > >That looks like five lanes each way to me, as well as little on/off ramps >down to underground parking garages. > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 22 18:10:20 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Wed Feb 22 18:10:38 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight: 5 Day Warning Message-ID: <20060222181020.GG20876@asklater.com> Hello Want to come to the IoW for the workshop? I know many of you do, this is a reminder to get your deposit in. There are 5 days left to get me 50 GBP deposit so we can hire a cottage. Currently 2 people have sent me money and we need perhaps 6 to make it feasible, so 3 more needed at least. If I don't get enough deposits, the event WILL NOT HAPPEN. You can paypal me 50 GBP plus 4% paypal fees, BACS or send a cheque. Annoouncement: http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=30 Wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Workshop have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Wed Feb 22 19:44:33 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Wed Feb 22 19:41:56 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight: 5 Day Warning In-Reply-To: <20060222181020.GG20876@asklater.com> References: <20060222181020.GG20876@asklater.com> Message-ID: <3184.62.158.67.194.1140637473.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > Want to come to the IoW for the workshop? I know many of you do, this is > a reminder to get your deposit in. > > There are 5 days left to get me 50 GBP deposit so we can hire a cottage. To be honest, currently the price is something that causes concern. With a final price of 60 to 100 GP (100 to 140 Euro) for one and a half night (I could arrive at friday, 5th night) only for accomodation... Maybe you even can't stick to that and providing internet, rented bikes, food etc.. It looks as only a couple of people are willing to come, so it sounds more feasible to do the event at someones home (if he owns a house) or dacha... Ciao, Imi. From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 22 20:05:01 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Wed Feb 22 20:05:23 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight: 5 Day Warning In-Reply-To: <3184.62.158.67.194.1140637473.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> References: <20060222181020.GG20876@asklater.com> <3184.62.158.67.194.1140637473.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Message-ID: <20060222200501.GJ20876@asklater.com> * @ 22/02/06 07:44:33 PM immanuel.scholz@gmx.de wrote: > Hi, > > > > Want to come to the IoW for the workshop? I know many of you do, this is > > a reminder to get your deposit in. > > > > There are 5 days left to get me 50 GBP deposit so we can hire a cottage. > > > To be honest, currently the price is something that causes concern. With a > final price of 60 to 100 GP (100 to 140 Euro) for one and a half night (I > could arrive at friday, 5th night) only for accomodation... Maybe you even > can't stick to that and providing internet, rented bikes, food etc.. > > It looks as only a couple of people are willing to come, so it sounds more > feasible to do the event at someones home (if he owns a house) or dacha... My email jogged quite a few people, I think we're fine. The 60-100 is a worst case scenario. I think we'll be fine with 50 GBP per person in total, but I can't guarentee that. For exmaple, with 50 GBP we'll get a semi-detached house without much hassle, but a detached cottage would be far more preferable. It also depends on numbers, so it's more expensive if few people come. Also, I'm hopeful of some sponsorship. But really, I think we're cool, lots of people want to come but I have to jog you all to pay up :-) have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Wed Feb 22 20:28:21 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Wed Feb 22 20:28:40 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] talks and accomodation Message-ID: <20060222202821.GB24674@asklater.com> Hi everyone I'm speaking at LUGRadio Live in Wolverhampton, near Birmingham, UK and XTech, Amsterdam about OSM. http://www.opengeodata.org/?cat=10 If anyone lives near(ish) these things and can put me up for a night or more on their floor for these things that'd be great as neither event is paying for travel or accomodation :-( And of course if you're going, meet up? have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Wed Feb 22 21:32:20 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Wed Feb 22 21:40:54 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 18:24, Andy Robinson wrote: > For any future navigational use, I think for navigational use defining a direction to every street would make sense. If you'd primarily only insert streets in the direction the track was inserted you'll be sure the street can be driven in the direction inserted. This way you'd have to add two tracks for all normal 2-way streets, but you could also add connection points (for routing) to the real intersection of two streets. For example on Autobahn you sometimes only have an exit in one direction. If you only have one street the routing would always fail on these streets. If i take another close look at Autobahns and routing i see that even if the exit in both directions is centered at almost the same point you need to announce these exits about 1Km apart from each other. And the third benefit would be that you wouldn't really have to think about "one way streets". If we want to use our Data for navigation and routing we might also have to add intersection points to our Data. > and for how a final map might look, it is > best to have even these very wide undivided highways as a single line > running down the centre. It only looks odd at the moment because all the > clients are drawing streets at a common width. I think it might be a good Idea to have additional info on every street on how many lanes there are. This way the client can draw the streets in different width. - Joerg From lars at aronsson.se Thu Feb 23 02:11:46 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Thu Feb 23 02:12:25 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] OSM and Denmark In-Reply-To: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> References: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> Message-ID: Mikkel Mondrup Kristensen wrote: > I am recently started mapping in Denmark, mostly Roskilde but i > take my gps where i can and i can se there are some tracks and > would like to know if there anyone else mapping here? The road that goes Hamburg-Esbjerg-Odense-Copenhagen-Sweden and back through Copenhagen-R?dby-Puttgarden-Luebeck was drawn by me from a track that user:Sxpert uploaded. This is his roundtrip Grenoble-Nordkap. Other than this I have only seen somebody mapping southern Odense. Apparently this is hco-juul (at) odense.kollegienet.dk You can monitor the RSS feeds for activity on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Feeds and contributor statistics on http://www.openstreetmap.org/stats/data_stats.html > Do you have a IRC channel or just mailing list and wiki? I don't use IRC at all, but the wiki [[Contact]] page indicates that others might do so. -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From simon at zymurgy.org Thu Feb 23 09:30:11 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Thu Feb 23 09:31:09 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> References: <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> Message-ID: <43FD80A3.9010607@zymurgy.org> Joerg Ostertag wrote: > This way you'd have to add two tracks for all normal 2-way streets, but you Thinking back to my dim and distant past, when I write a route planning program on a Commodore 64, I modeled each node to have a number of links to surrounding junctions (I didn't bother with intermediate points curves, but stored the distance in the node). I did have to remember to specify both directions for every link, but it did work, and it never went the wrong way down a one-way street. However, it still couldn't deal with no-right-turn and no-left-turn. My algorithm then wasn't brilliant, it consisted of first of all heading in the right direction, and finding any path it could (it had problems with rivers, and ended up backing up and starting from the previous node).. Once it had found a route, it proceeded to attempt to find better routes between portions of the route it had found, in an iterative manner. (It was a variant of Dijkstra's algorithm, but I hadn't heard of Dijkstra at the time) That was in the days of a 1MHz cpu, and relatively little RAM. These days, most PC-based route planning software seems to do things differently. I found a useful link. http://ai-depot.com/BotNavigation/Path.html So, when once of us (possibly me) starts a route-planning bit of software using OSM data, it would first of all need to get a data snapshot of an bounding box a little bigger than the start and end points, and then build it's own data structure, knowing that if there's a segment from A->B then unless there's tags otherwise, B->A is also possible. Therefore the OSM database doesn't itself need to store segments from A->B and B->A because that could be left to the route planning engine's own data structure. -- Simon Hewison From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Feb 23 09:41:43 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Thu Feb 23 09:42:06 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FD80A3.9010607@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: I'm with you on this Simon. If a line segment has no tags for direction then it is assumed that you can travel from node A to B or from B to A. On a motorway for example the segment for each travel direction (drawn as separate linear features) simply has a tag indicating the direction A to B is NOT permissible or B to A is NOT permissible. I prefer to opt out rather than opt in so in my modelling of features you tag the restrictor attributes rather than the acceptor attributes. Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk >-----Original Message----- >From: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >bounces@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Simon Hewison >Sent: 23 February 2006 09:30 >To: talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] About large streets > >Joerg Ostertag wrote: >> This way you'd have to add two tracks for all normal 2-way streets, but >you > >Thinking back to my dim and distant past, when I write a route planning >program on a Commodore 64, I modeled each node to have a number of links >to surrounding junctions (I didn't bother with intermediate points >curves, but stored the distance in the node). I did have to remember to >specify both directions for every link, but it did work, and it never >went the wrong way down a one-way street. However, it still couldn't >deal with no-right-turn and no-left-turn. > >My algorithm then wasn't brilliant, it consisted of first of all heading >in the right direction, and finding any path it could (it had problems >with rivers, and ended up backing up and starting from the previous >node).. Once it had found a route, it proceeded to attempt to find >better routes between portions of the route it had found, in an >iterative manner. (It was a variant of Dijkstra's algorithm, but I >hadn't heard of Dijkstra at the time) > >That was in the days of a 1MHz cpu, and relatively little RAM. These >days, most PC-based route planning software seems to do things >differently. I found a useful link. > >http://ai-depot.com/BotNavigation/Path.html > >So, when once of us (possibly me) starts a route-planning bit of >software using OSM data, it would first of all need to get a data >snapshot of an bounding box a little bigger than the start and end >points, and then build it's own data structure, knowing that if there's >a segment from A->B then unless there's tags otherwise, B->A is also >possible. Therefore the OSM database doesn't itself need to store >segments from A->B and B->A because that could be left to the route >planning engine's own data structure. > >-- >Simon Hewison > >_______________________________________________ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk From richard at systemeD.net Thu Feb 23 09:47:49 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Thu Feb 23 09:47:53 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FD80A3.9010607@zymurgy.org> References: <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> <43FD80A3.9010607@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: <20060223094749.1h35b42hicgk004g@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Simon Hewison : > Thinking back to my dim and distant past, when I write a route > planning program on a Commodore 64, I modeled each node to have a > number of links to surrounding junctions (I didn't bother with > intermediate points curves, but stored the distance in the node). Heh... I did pretty much the same on the Amstrad CPC and PCW (imaginatively titled RoutePlanner), using the best-first algorithm. You could fit pretty much the whole UK road network in the 64k 'extra memory' of the CPC 6128, as long as you restricted yourself to non-urban A roads! Richard From mike at ayeltd.biz Fri Feb 24 01:47:50 2006 From: mike at ayeltd.biz (Collinson Mike) Date: Fri Feb 24 01:48:17 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] About large streets In-Reply-To: <43FD80A3.9010607@zymurgy.org> References: <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> <200602222232.21000.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060224123443.04b8d180@ayeltd.biz> Reading your email it occurred to me that the O'Reilly book "AI for Games Developers (Creating Intelligent Behaviour in Games)", Bourg and Seemann, might provide some interesting insights. I shall certainly re-read it to see if it is relevant. The first 7 (of 15) chapters are basically about path finding. Mike Collinson At 09:30 AM 23/02/2006 +0000, Simon Hewison wrote: >That was in the days of a 1MHz cpu, and relatively little RAM. These days, >most PC-based route planning software seems to do things differently. I >found a useful link. > >http://ai-depot.com/BotNavigation/Path.html > >So, when once of us (possibly me) starts a route-planning bit of software >using OSM data, it would first of all need to get a data snapshot of an >bounding box a little bigger than the start and end points, and then build >it's own data structure, knowing that if there's a segment from A->B then >unless there's tags otherwise, B->A is also possible. Therefore the OSM >database doesn't itself need to store segments from A->B and B->A because >that could be left to the route planning engine's own data structure. From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Feb 24 09:05:11 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Fri Feb 24 09:05:31 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] multimap patent Message-ID: Has Mulimap's patents been discussed here at some point. Ought we to have a page on the wiki that summarises what we know about patents that we need to be careful about. The Navtech curves patent were discussed previously "The European patent EP0845124B, entitled "Computer System for Identifying Local Resources and Method Therefor," relates to Multimap.com's technology for displaying both an image of a map and information data relating to at least one place of interest on the map to an end user." .. and in the US: " A map of the area of a client computer (10) is requested from a map server (11). Information relating to a place of interest is requested from an information server (12) by the client computer (10). The information is superimposed or overlaid on a map image at a position on the map image corresponding to the location of the place of interest on the map. The information (or "overlay") server (12) may contain details of, for example, hotels, restaurants, shops or the like, associated with the geographical coordinates of each location. The map server (11) contains map data, including coordinate data representing the spatial coordinates of at least one point on the area represented by the map." Links to the full details are at the bottom of multimaps map page. Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk From richard at systemeD.net Fri Feb 24 09:39:33 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Fri Feb 24 09:39:38 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] multimap patent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060224093933.teg5p9q3kk4440wk@webmail.systemed.net> Quoting Andy Robinson : > Has Mulimap's patents been discussed here at some point. Ought we to have a > page on the wiki that summarises what we know about patents that we need to > be careful about. The Navtech curves patent were discussed previously The Multimap patent has certainly been discussed on other carto/geo lists, and the generally unanimous conclusion is that there is so much "prior art" that it's unenforceable. http://www.google.com/search?q=multimap+patent+%22prior+art%22 Richard From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Fri Feb 24 18:30:26 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Fri Feb 24 18:30:54 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] SIGSEG in osm-editor Message-ID: <200602241930.27008.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> while uploading osm Data I got a sigseg: (gdb) bt #0 0xb7379ac9 in free () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 #1 0xb77fde84 in curl_slist_free_all () from /usr/lib/libcurl.so.3 #2 0xb780ae89 in curl_msnprintf () from /usr/lib/libcurl.so.3 #3 0xb780c8d1 in curl_msnprintf () from /usr/lib/libcurl.so.3 #4 0xb780ced3 in curl_easy_perform () from /usr/lib/libcurl.so.3 #5 0x080856aa in put_data ( idata=0x843cfe8 "\n \n \n \n References: <200602241930.27008.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> Message-ID: <200602242357.17357.nick@hogweed.org> On Friday 24 February 2006 18:30, Joerg Ostertag wrote: > while uploading osm Data I got a sigseg: > I'd use osmeditor2, the original osmeditor is no longer being maintained (by me, anyhow). To build it, type make osmeditor2. Let me know if osmeditor2 gives you problems. Nick From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Sat Feb 25 07:59:10 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Sat Feb 25 07:59:22 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] SIGSEG in osm-editor In-Reply-To: <200602242357.17357.nick@hogweed.org> References: <200602241930.27008.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> <200602242357.17357.nick@hogweed.org> Message-ID: <200602250859.11576.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> On Saturday 25 February 2006 00:57, nick@hogweed.org wrote: > On Friday 24 February 2006 18:30, Joerg Ostertag wrote: > > while uploading osm Data I got a sigseg: > > I'd use osmeditor2, the original osmeditor is no longer being maintained > (by me, anyhow). To build it, type make osmeditor2. > > Let me know if osmeditor2 gives you problems. Yes :-( I think my problem is having qt3 installed on the system(debian testing). make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/local_install/GPS_Navigation/osmeditor/svn.openstreetmap.org/osm-editor/jeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7' c++ -o osmeditor2 osmeditor2.o MainWindow2.o GPSDevice2.o LandsatManager2.o Components2.o Node.o Segment.o WaypointDialogue.o RouteMetaDataHandler.o LoginDialogue.o moc_MainWindow2.o curlstuff.o SRTMConGen.o SRTMDataGrid.o SRTMGeneral.o llgr.o OSMParser2.o qmdcodec.o HTTPHandler.o moc_HTTPHandler.o -Ljeeps-gpsbabel-1.2.7 -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/lib -ljeeps -lqt `curl-config --libs` /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lqt collect2: ld returned 1 exit status make: *** [osmeditor2] Fehler 1 Joerg -- http://www.ostertag.name/ From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Sat Feb 25 09:52:25 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Sat Feb 25 09:52:30 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] SIGSEG in osm-editor Message-ID: Joerg Ostertag 25/02/2006 07:59 Sent by: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org To : >Yes :-( >I think my problem is having qt3 installed on the system(debian testing). Try editing the makefile and change to -lqt-mt. Some variants of Linux call the library libqt.so, and others libqt-mt.so. I'll have to put this up on the wiki.... Nick From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Sat Feb 25 09:54:46 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Sat Feb 25 09:54:49 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] osmeditor: move to Qt4: opinions? Message-ID: Would like to get some feedback from everyone who uses osmeditor. I would like to move it wholesale to Qt 4, so that there will be a single version which compiles on Linux, Windows and Mac, and so that there is always an up-to-date version for Windows users. However I am aware that for most Linux distributions, the standard version of Qt is version 3 (due to dependencies from KDE 3) Would anyone object if I started moving it to Qt4? Nick From openstreetmap at ostertag.name Sat Feb 25 20:19:10 2006 From: openstreetmap at ostertag.name (Joerg Ostertag) Date: Sat Feb 25 20:19:17 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] SIGSEG in osm-editor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602252119.10925.openstreetmap@ostertag.name> On Saturday 25 February 2006 10:52, Nick Whitelegg wrote: > Joerg Ostertag > 25/02/2006 07:59 > > Sent by: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org > > > To > > >Yes :-( > > > >I think my problem is having qt3 installed on the system(debian testing). > > Try editing the makefile and change to -lqt-mt. Some variants of Linux call > the library libqt.so, and others libqt-mt.so. Thanks it compile now :-)))) > I'll have to put this up on the wiki.... Maybe some better (additional) place would be in the README. I hope I don't seem aekward if I now ask more dump questions: - How can I upload *.gpx Files with osmedit2 ? Joerg -- http://www.ostertag.name/ From Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk Sun Feb 26 09:48:03 2006 From: Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk (Nick Whitelegg) Date: Sun Feb 26 09:48:11 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] SIGSEG in osm-editor Message-ID: Joerg Ostertag 25/02/2006 20:19 Sent by: talk-bounces@openstreetmap.org To: talk@openstreetmap.org cc: Su >I hope I don't seem aekward if I now ask more dump questions: >- How can I upload *.gpx Files with osmedit2 ? You can't (yet) upload GPX files with osmeditor2, you have to do it through the web interface. There's a possibility that the 0.3 API will include a facility to upload GPX files via the API; if that happens, osmeditor2 will immediately support GPX upload. If not, I will probably implement it anyway, but it's awkward to simulate 'multipart/form data' ('input type=file') HTTP requests so I'm waiting to see if 0.3 will support GPX upload via the API (Steve?) However, you can upload nodes and segments created with osmeditor2 direct to OSM, via the "Upload to OSM" menu option. Before Christmas, Tom and Mikel (I think) recommended upload of all raw GPX data to OSM to "prove" the map data isn't copyright. What I do is upload the raw GPX via the web interface and create and upload the nodes/segments on osmeditor2. osmeditor2 will not (yet) support GPX save/load, only the native 'OSM' format. However osmeditor will support GPX save/load and native 'OSM' save. So if you need to read a GPX *file*, load it into osmeditor, save as OSM and load it back into osmeditor2. GPX save/load will be put back into osmeditor2 as soon as I have the time.... Nick Joerg -- http://www.ostertag.name/ _______________________________________________ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk From f_mohr at yahoo.de Sun Feb 26 13:31:28 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Sun Feb 26 13:32:03 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] overlapping uploads Message-ID: <4401ADB0.704@yahoo.de> when i added a track near "Wiesbadener Kreuz" (Junction A3/A66), i noticed a low res line crossing the A3 named "A3 - A9 - K?ln - FFT - Nuernberg - Muc" was it intentional to duplicate the already mapped part of the A3 ? is it ok if i delete those lines for the already mapped part (K?ln - FFM) ? frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Feb 27 10:09:45 2006 From: Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk (Andy Robinson) Date: Mon Feb 27 10:09:49 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] OT - FW: [CARTO-SoC] Beta Testers Wanted for MAPublisher 7.0 Message-ID: Not sure how many have already spotted this but it might be of interest to some. Andy Andy Robinson Andy_J_Robinson@blueyonder.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: carto-soc-request@sheffield.ac.uk [mailto:carto-soc-request@sheffield.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Ted Florence Sent: 27 February 2006 09:55 To: Multiple recipients of list CARTO-SOC Subject: [CARTO-SoC] Beta Testers Wanted for MAPublisher 7.0 To all MAPublisher users and other interested parties: At this time Avenza is very pleased to invite interested parties to become beta-testers for MAPublisher 7.0 for Adobe Illustrator CS & CS2. In order to be considered for participation in this beta program all parties must complete the non-disclosure form located here: http://www.avenza.com/beta-nda.html If you have been selected to participate you will receive notification via email and duly informed as to where and when the downloadable betas will be available. Thank you -- Ted Florence ted@avenza.com Geographic Imager for Adobe Photoshop is now available!! MAPublisher 6.2 for Adobe Illustrator CS2 is now available. Order your copy today at http://www.avenza.com/products.ordering.html One-on-one Live Online Demos Now Offered - http://www.avenza.com/livedemo.html MAPublisher - When Map Quality Matters Avenza Systems (416) 487-5116 http://www.avenza.com ****************************************************************** Developers of Geographic Imager, MAPublisher, MAPdataUSA, MAPublisher-GPS Bridging the gap between your GIS and major graphics software -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Distributed by CARTO-SoC, the Society of Cartographers Mailing List. For more details about this List and the Society, visit our web site: http://www.soc.org.uk Join the Society on-line now: http://www.soc.org.uk/member.html From openstreetmap at gagravarr.org Mon Feb 27 12:04:15 2006 From: openstreetmap at gagravarr.org (Nick Burch) Date: Mon Feb 27 12:04:18 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Slightly OT: Best bluetooth GPS chipset? Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have experience with how the NEMERIX chipset compares to the RFMD chipset, especially in the area of bluetooth GPSs? I currently have a RFMD based bluetooth gps, and I find it's normally very fast to aquire signal, and normally gives very accurate tracks. That said, it does occasionally have a strop (several minutes where it knows where the satellites are, is picking up the time, but refusing to give a fix, in open skies). I would expect it'd be better than a NEMERIX one, since it has 32 channels instead of 16, but I thought I should check before spouting this as true! Cheers Nick From preben at chin.dk Mon Feb 27 12:19:12 2006 From: preben at chin.dk (Preben Mikael Bohn) Date: Mon Feb 27 12:19:18 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] OSM and Denmark In-Reply-To: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> References: <1140568561.7464.8.camel@monlap.barfoed-kristensen.dk> Message-ID: <14558.193.163.1.105.1141042752.squirrel@mail.chin.dk> > I am recently started mapping in Denmark, mostly Roskilde but i take my > gps where i can and i can se there are some tracks and would like to > know if there anyone else mapping here? > I know lars talked about a talk in Denmark on a SSLUG mailing list and i > would like to see if we could get some more people to make tracks and > maps. I am currently trying to map my own town from both GPS data and the public KMS data (I havn't done much on this project for some time, but I will do it at some point). However as I see it only the GPS data can be used within OSM currently; I would like to add major/minor/etc road indicators, but this is not directly supported in OSM (yet). Best regards Preben From steve at asklater.com Mon Feb 27 16:57:58 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 27 16:58:18 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] testing Message-ID: <20060227165758.GJ6257@asklater.com> It's been reported that the mailing list is down so... testing have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From steve at asklater.com Mon Feb 27 17:10:39 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Mon Feb 27 17:10:55 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Isle of Wight Workshop: Last warning and administravia Message-ID: <20060227171038.GK6257@asklater.com> Hi Last chance to get your deposit in, though its looking like multiple cottages might happen with more people. I'm booking RSN. If you're coming, or might come, please subscribe to the iow workshop mailing list: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/iow As I don't want to spam the entire list with planning and talk about the workshop. If you're NOT coming but could provide some support, please subscribe also. I envisage a need for whiteboards, bicycles and other bits and odd ends that you might be able to help out with. Please also keep an eye on the wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Workshop There is a rss feed of recent changes. Looks like it's going to be great! have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Mon Feb 27 19:57:37 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Mon Feb 27 19:57:55 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Labelling Proposals Message-ID: <8fcd02310602271157p1e1f923bg64c3ac1297a1d9d4@mail.gmail.com> Folks I've made some proposals over on the wiki for labelling of cycle routes and ski resorts. The proposals are at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:WikiProject_United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Proposed_Labelling_Scheme and: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_Piste_Maps#Proposal_for_Labelling Any comments or additional suggestions would be very welcome. Etienne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060227/3d317f7e/attachment.html From simon at zymurgy.org Mon Feb 27 20:04:26 2006 From: simon at zymurgy.org (Simon Hewison) Date: Mon Feb 27 20:04:42 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] signposted directions Message-ID: <44035B4A.9060503@zymurgy.org> I've come across the idea that describing signposted turnings using the wording on the signs could be a good idea when it comes to driving directions. For this, I propose the use of the key "directions" on street segments immediately next to a junction, which is a comma-separated list of signposted destinations in that direction. Anyone else think this is a good idea? -- Simon Hewison From colin.mackay at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 21:00:04 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Mon Feb 27 21:00:14 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations Message-ID: Hi All, I'm taking my first few tentative steps with this project and I hope to get a GPS soon. However, I have some suggestions, so I hope this isn't something that has been discussed before and I've just missed where the information is. Anyway here goes: I think some of this may be applicable to the Cycle Network Project also, but I'm putting it here as it is more general. I've been adding attributes (labels) to some of the road network in Scotland. I've come across something that I couldn't find an answer for, and I've see examples in the data that, to me, just look wrong. Here is the situation: The A90 runs, more-or-less, from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. At some point it crosses the Firth of Forth. While the A90 is in Edinburgh, it is known for the most part as Queensferry Road. Over the Firth of Forth it is known as the Forth Road Bridge. And I'm sure that in other sections it is know be a more common local name. In some countries, like the USA, the situation is more interesting as roads seem to pick up many names and route numbers. Across the EU there is a pan-EU numbering system that seems to be intermittently displayed (certainly in the UK it isn't displayed, although some major routes do have an EU route designation) At the moment I've seen an example where a link has a name of "Axxxx Great Kingsway" (or some such thing). I would like to suggest that this would be better split out in to separate attributes (labels?). e.g. name1 = Queensferry Road route1 = A90 or route1=M9 route2=M876 (Apparently the UK's only multiplexed motorway) The reason I'm using route1, name1, route2, name2, etc. is because from my perspective at the moment the database schema is very flexible and apparently not normalised in the slightest. I'd like the postfix numbers on the column/field/label identifier so that if the data was ever extracted and normalised it would make the job easier. Regards, Colin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060227/45e856be/attachment.html From colin.mackay at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 21:07:30 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Mon Feb 27 21:07:33 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] A glossary for terms Message-ID: Hi All, As I take my first steps with this project it occurs to me that in my few years away from GIS I'd forgotton just how much a lack of consensus there was between different groups on the definition of terms. What this means is that with some terminology I am confused about the exact meaning. Take "label" for example http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Labels When I was writing GIS software I *think* I might have called these "attributes". What I would have called a "label" would have been the textual annotations that appear on the map itself. These days I would say they were columns on a table (and that definition seems to be fairly consistent across a number of database vendors - some of the cheap and cheerful kind might say it is a "field"). Anyway, that all said, it would be great to have a glossary of terms on the wiki so the newbies to the project, such as myself, can use it to understand more fully what is going on. Any thoughts? Regards, Colin Mackay. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060227/92f46521/attachment.htm From richard at systemeD.net Mon Feb 27 21:09:10 2006 From: richard at systemeD.net (Richard Fairhurst) Date: Mon Feb 27 21:09:43 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99d82614dbec0bf36d75de08a752d65c@systemeD.net> On 27 Feb 2006, at 21:00, Colin Mackay wrote: > ??? route1=M9 > ??? route2=M876 > (Apparently the UK's only multiplexed motorway) M6 Toll / M42? :) But yes, 'multiplexing' (to use the sabre-roads.org.uk term) does need to be addressed. 80n makes the same point on the NCN discussion page on the wiki. Richard From f_mohr at yahoo.de Mon Feb 27 23:28:38 2006 From: f_mohr at yahoo.de (Frank Mohr) Date: Mon Feb 27 23:29:25 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <99d82614dbec0bf36d75de08a752d65c@systemeD.net> References: <99d82614dbec0bf36d75de08a752d65c@systemeD.net> Message-ID: <44038B26.1090306@yahoo.de> Richard Fairhurst wrote: > On 27 Feb 2006, at 21:00, Colin Mackay wrote: > >> route1=M9 >> route2=M876 >> (Apparently the UK's only multiplexed motorway) > > > M6 Toll / M42? :) > > But yes, 'multiplexing' (to use the sabre-roads.org.uk term) does need > to be addressed. 80n makes the same point on the NCN discussion page on > the wiki. > > Richard We have the same problem in Germany (B/L/St/K roads) and France (RN/RD roads) when numbered roads cross cities and those roads also get street names. frank ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Tue Feb 28 00:46:08 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Tue Feb 28 00:46:22 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/27/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > route1=M9 > route2=M876 > The xml way of describing this would be: M9 M876 As OSM labels perhaps a comma separated list would be sufficient: route=M9, M876 Etienne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/4de50571/attachment-0001.html From oh2kku at iki.fi Tue Feb 28 00:49:32 2006 From: oh2kku at iki.fi (Tapio Sokura) Date: Tue Feb 28 00:49:36 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] signposted directions In-Reply-To: <44035B4A.9060503@zymurgy.org> References: <44035B4A.9060503@zymurgy.org> Message-ID: <44039E1C.60407@iki.fi> Simon Hewison wrote: > I've come across the idea that describing signposted turnings using the > wording on the signs could be a good idea when it comes to driving > directions. I think they are very useful. I have a car navigator that displays road signs on the screen, but unfortunately only a small percentage of actual signs are in the map data. Especially if the navigator could read out loud the signs to follow via a speech synthesizer, one would rarely need to take one's eyes off the road to look at the navigator screen. Tapio From steve at asklater.com Tue Feb 28 01:36:10 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Tue Feb 28 01:36:20 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] freethepostcode updates, and pledge request Message-ID: <20060228013610.GB11438@asklater.com> I've upgraded freethepostcode's code to be nicer, at least to the stage where I'm not gagging with shame. It's sitting in the subversion repos. There are many upgrades requested for the site. I've created a pledge http://www.pledgebank.com/pcodeupgrade which reads "I will upgrade freethepostcode.org to allow postcodes from other countries, allow other coordinate systems (like National Grid) and write a europe-wide geocoder based on this Free data but only if 15 other people will enter 40 postcodes over the next year OR do the translations OR give 10 pounds." -- Steve Coast, agitator So, if the pledge completes I'll do the work. Of course, you're more than welcome to fulfil more than one of the options. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From colin.mackay at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 08:00:28 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Tue Feb 28 08:00:40 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not entirely sure a comma separated list would be a good idea. While I cannot see any commas being used naturally as part of a route designation, I can envisage some strangely named street containing commas. If a convention for dealing with this sort of thing is to be used, it must be used consistently throughout otherwise people get confused. In some places in Scotland, and I'm sure around Europe too, there are streets with two names because there are two dominant languages in the area (Scots Gaelic & English for example). There are also examples of dual named streets in Edinburgh where both names are in English. Regards, Colin. On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > > On 2/27/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > > > route1=M9 > > route2=M876 > > > The xml way of describing this would be: > > M9 > M876 > > As OSM labels perhaps a comma separated list would be sufficient: > route=M9, M876 > > Etienne > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/8ddec7e1/attachment.htm From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 28 10:08:50 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Tue Feb 28 10:09:26 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] A glossary for terms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Colin Mackay wrote: > As I take my first steps with this project it occurs to me that > in my few years away from GIS I'd forgotton just how much a lack > of consensus there was between different groups on the > definition of terms. What this means is that with some > terminology I am confused about the exact meaning. It's good to know that you've been writing GIS software, because most people here have not. Just like GIS was once a radical change in the world of cartography, we are now seeing a radical change in the world of GIS, with non-GIS people pouring in into open source projects such as Open Street Map. I'd say OSM is more of an open source (and wiki) project than a GIS project. It would be easy to ridicule the ignorant newcomers (Python kids, who never learnt Fortran) and say that they should listen to the old experts and respect their old consensus agreements. That's probably what happened to the GIS pioneers, who in the 1970s wrote books on how to make "lineprinter maps" (my local university library has several of those, great reading!). But nonetheless, both sides are here and both shape the future. Those who want to be listened to, had better speak the language of their (younger) target audience. Another GIS person, Kendall Sears, culture-clashed into this concrete wall of misunderstanding in December, as you can see from the list archives, and has been silent since then. I hope he is still lurking and that he'll recover and return. In August I heard a presentation of MapBender by Arnulf Christl at the Wikimania conference (for Wikipedia people) in Frankfurt, Germany, and I just shook my head in disbelief at the attitude among GIS people to embrace and play with proprietary GIS data, that was a silent assumption in his presentation. There is now free software for GIS, but there aren't any useful free GIS data, at least not outside the U.S.A., so the free software evangelists within the GIS community seem to just have given up about free data. Given this line-up, I think it's important to know where we are and where we come from. I was born in 1966, saw my first computer in 1982, learned Fortran in 1983, and C/UNIX in 1986. This is when I started to appreciate free software, by Richard Stallman's definition. I've been using the Internet since 1988 and Linux since 1992. In 1992 I started Project Runeberg (runeberg.org), a Scandinavian literature archive on the Internet. Inspired by, but frustrated with, Wikipedia, I started by own Swedish wiki (susning.nu) in 2001, which for some time was the world's 3rd largest wiki. Since 1996 I'm an independent consultant, specializing in large systems and performance tuning. I wrote my first prototype for an Internet-based (telnet) mapping application in 1991. A second WWW-based prototype from May 1994 is still online at http://www.lysator.liu.se/rwi/ (Who else has 12 year old web prototypes laying around?) When I found out about OSM in May 2005, it was a great "finally!" moment, to see people starting out from "free" to make free maps. Today's OSM still looks rather primitive, but it's actually producing something. If you remember Wikipedia in 2001 or the entire WWW in 1993, you understand that small things can grow big. My user page on the OSM wiki is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:LA2 -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From colin.mackay at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 12:37:02 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Tue Feb 28 12:37:07 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] A glossary for terms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm hoping that the set up of a glossary of terms would help so that newcomers to the project, such as myself, can get up to speed quickly. While I have a wholes set vocabulary of my own for describing things here I wouldn't want to impose something that already has a clear definition. If it doesn't have a clear definition I'd like to get a consensus on something so we can disambiguate any existing terms that are in use without a clean meaning so that communication works well. For background, I was born in 1974. I started programming in 1983 at the age of 8 on a ZX Spectrum. My final year project at University was writing an Object Oriented GIS system in C++ (The functionality at the project completion was the display of background raster maps, OS data + data from an ODBC data source, so long as it had X & Y columns, and some basic spatial functions like point-in-polygon). I then co-founded a GIS product company called Sirius Seven Software (http://www.sirius7.com/) which still exists even although I'm no longer involved with it. After that I spent some time writing Magik for Smallworld systems around Europe. In 2003 I dropped out of GIS and have been concentrating on traditional RDBMS systems since then. I still maintain an interest in GIS software and data and I love maps. I see great potential in this project. And I hope that it will become a fantastic resource that will rival the Ordnance Survey data. (Perhaps I'm slightly bitter that the company I formed went through some tough times and had to let many people go - which is why I'm no longer involved. One of the reasons was that in our youthful optimism we totally failed to see what a high barrier to entry the cost of OS data would be to businesses. The majority of the customer base was government organisations with their sweet SLAs with the OS that no one else realistically had access to). There are a number of things that I think I can bring to this project. Enthusiasm, My love of map data; data modelling skills; software development skills; and hopefully soon some actual GPS trails to add into the system. So, that's my background. I hope I can be useful. Regards, Colin. On 28/02/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > > Colin Mackay wrote: > > > As I take my first steps with this project it occurs to me that > > in my few years away from GIS I'd forgotton just how much a lack > > of consensus there was between different groups on the > > definition of terms. What this means is that with some > > terminology I am confused about the exact meaning. > > It's good to know that you've been writing GIS software, because > most people here have not. Just like GIS was once a radical > change in the world of cartography, we are now seeing a radical > change in the world of GIS, with non-GIS people pouring in into > open source projects such as Open Street Map. I'd say OSM is more > of an open source (and wiki) project than a GIS project. > > It would be easy to ridicule the ignorant newcomers (Python kids, > who never learnt Fortran) and say that they should listen to the > old experts and respect their old consensus agreements. That's > probably what happened to the GIS pioneers, who in the 1970s wrote > books on how to make "lineprinter maps" (my local university > library has several of those, great reading!). But nonetheless, > both sides are here and both shape the future. Those who want to > be listened to, had better speak the language of their (younger) > target audience. > > Another GIS person, Kendall Sears, culture-clashed into this > concrete wall of misunderstanding in December, as you can see from > the list archives, and has been silent since then. I hope he is > still lurking and that he'll recover and return. > > In August I heard a presentation of MapBender by Arnulf Christl at > the Wikimania conference (for Wikipedia people) in Frankfurt, > Germany, and I just shook my head in disbelief at the attitude > among GIS people to embrace and play with proprietary GIS data, > that was a silent assumption in his presentation. There is now > free software for GIS, but there aren't any useful free GIS data, > at least not outside the U.S.A., so the free software evangelists > within the GIS community seem to just have given up about free > data. > > Given this line-up, I think it's important to know where we are > and where we come from. > > I was born in 1966, saw my first computer in 1982, learned Fortran > in 1983, and C/UNIX in 1986. This is when I started to appreciate > free software, by Richard Stallman's definition. I've been using > the Internet since 1988 and Linux since 1992. In 1992 I started > Project Runeberg (runeberg.org), a Scandinavian literature archive > on the Internet. Inspired by, but frustrated with, Wikipedia, I > started by own Swedish wiki (susning.nu) in 2001, which for some > time was the world's 3rd largest wiki. Since 1996 I'm an > independent consultant, specializing in large systems and > performance tuning. I wrote my first prototype for an > Internet-based (telnet) mapping application in 1991. A second > WWW-based prototype from May 1994 is still online at > http://www.lysator.liu.se/rwi/ > (Who else has 12 year old web prototypes laying around?) > > When I found out about OSM in May 2005, it was a great "finally!" > moment, to see people starting out from "free" to make free maps. > Today's OSM still looks rather primitive, but it's actually > producing something. If you remember Wikipedia in 2001 or the > entire WWW in 1993, you understand that small things can grow big. > > My user page on the OSM wiki is > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:LA2 > > > -- > Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) > Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/08d9e065/attachment.html From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Tue Feb 28 16:39:09 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Tue Feb 28 16:39:14 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> Colin Currently, as I understand it labels are implemented (in some places) as a single semi-colon delimited string, eg "class=motorway; name=M1;". I'd much prefer to go the XML way using elements to identify properties of a road, but this can be cumbersome and would take some time to get implemented. Using a comma (or some other character) as a list delimiter was a quick and simple proposal to get something that is workable and up-and-running straight away. We can always convert the data to XML when the software is ready for it. I guess we could specify an escaping convention for data that really needs to contain a comma. eg route=A317, NR4, Surrey Cycle Guide\, No 3. Do you have thoughts on any other options? Etienne On 2/28/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > I'm not entirely sure a comma separated list would be a good idea. While I > cannot see any commas being used naturally as part of a route designation, I > can envisage some strangely named street containing commas. If a convention > for dealing with this sort of thing is to be used, it must be used > consistently throughout otherwise people get confused. > > In some places in Scotland, and I'm sure around Europe too, there are > streets with two names because there are two dominant languages in the area > (Scots Gaelic & English for example). There are also examples of dual named > streets in Edinburgh where both names are in English. > > Regards, > Colin. > > > On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > > > On 2/27/06, Colin Mackay < colin.mackay@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > route1=M9 > > > route2=M876 > > > > > The xml way of describing this would be: > > > > M9 > > M876 > > > > As OSM labels perhaps a comma separated list would be sufficient: > > route=M9, M876 > > > > Etienne > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/fd51363e/attachment.htm From dave at earth.li Tue Feb 28 17:38:00 2006 From: dave at earth.li (David Sheldon) Date: Tue Feb 28 17:38:04 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 04:39:09PM +0000, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > > I guess we could specify an escaping convention for data that really needs > to contain a comma. eg route=A317, NR4, Surrey Cycle Guide\, No 3. > > Do you have thoughts on any other options? The best solution would probably to store the tag data in another table of the database with a number of tags per item that is tagged. This is more relational, and has no problems with deliminators. David -- Real programmers don't believe in schedules. Planners make up schedules. Managers "firm up" schedules. Frightened coders strive to meet schedules. Real programmers ignore schedules. From colin.mackay at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 17:40:43 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Tue Feb 28 17:40:45 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah... My understanding of what a label is must be wrong. This goes back to my other mail about the need for a glossary of terms. My understanding of a label was something like name=M90 Another label might be class=motorway They would both apply to the same link But it appears that a label is some sort of amalgamation of all of these. In terms of using XML, that would be good as a transfer format. But, how is the data actually held. There doesn't seem to be anything in the wiki about that. I know there are some servers, but what database system is being used? Is it specific to this project? There isn't a high level overview about how all this fits together. There also seems to be some problems when two people are editing the "same area". Which is a point I was curious about (but, I'll leave that for another time) Regards, Colin. On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > > Colin > Currently, as I understand it labels are implemented (in some places) as a > single semi-colon delimited string, eg "class=motorway; name=M1;". > > I'd much prefer to go the XML way using elements to identify properties of > a road, but this can be cumbersome and would take some time to get > implemented. Using a comma (or some other character) as a list delimiter > was a quick and simple proposal to get something that is workable and > up-and-running straight away. We can always convert the data to XML when > the software is ready for it. > > I guess we could specify an escaping convention for data that really needs > to contain a comma. eg route=A317, NR4, Surrey Cycle Guide\, No 3. > > Do you have thoughts on any other options? > > Etienne > > On 2/28/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > > > I'm not entirely sure a comma separated list would be a good idea. While > > I cannot see any commas being used naturally as part of a route designation, > > I can envisage some strangely named street containing commas. If a > > convention for dealing with this sort of thing is to be used, it must be > > used consistently throughout otherwise people get confused. > > > > In some places in Scotland, and I'm sure around Europe too, there are > > streets with two names because there are two dominant languages in the area > > (Scots Gaelic & English for example). There are also examples of dual named > > streets in Edinburgh where both names are in English. > > > > Regards, > > Colin. > > > > > > On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu < openstreetmap-L@gj0.net> wrote: > > > > > On 2/27/06, Colin Mackay < colin.mackay@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > route1=M9 > > > > route2=M876 > > > > > > > The xml way of describing this would be: > > > > > > M9 > > > M876 > > > > > > As OSM labels perhaps a comma separated list would be sufficient: > > > route=M9, M876 > > > > > > Etienne > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > talk mailing list > > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/8be8eec5/attachment.html From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 28 19:21:00 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Tue Feb 28 19:16:49 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <1519.62.158.96.9.1141154460.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> > On Tue, Feb 28, 2006 at 04:39:09PM +0000, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: >> >> I guess we could specify an escaping convention for data that really >> needs to contain a comma. eg route=A317, NR4, Surrey Cycle Guide\, No 3. >> >> Do you have thoughts on any other options? > > The best solution would probably to store the tag data in another table > of the database with a number of tags per item that is tagged. This is > more relational, and has no problems with deliminators. I don't think Etienne is speaking of storing several properties within the database. He is speaking of delimiting ONE property which has several values. As example, if you have two different but correct names "A1" and "Baker Street" for a street, you could do: name1=A1 name2=Baker Street or you could do: name=A1,Baker Street The second has the problem that a street name may contain , in its name, in which case Etienne suggested to use \, to encode the comma. I am fine with this, but I won't enter a comma as street name anyway.. ;-) An completly other way would be to change the structure of properties (currently a list of key/value pairs) to be able to hold lists of values (so it become a list of "keys/list of values" pairs). I don't like this very much. It looks too complex to me and is applicable in too few cases. Ciao, Imi. From immanuel.scholz at gmx.de Tue Feb 28 19:37:51 2006 From: immanuel.scholz at gmx.de (Immanuel Scholz) Date: Tue Feb 28 19:33:39 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1531.62.158.96.9.1141155471.squirrel@www.eigenheimstrasse.de> Hi, > Ah... My understanding of what a label is must be wrong. This goes back to > my other mail about the need for a glossary of terms. For the programmers part of OSM, the word "label" is not well defined (yet). My current understanding is (please, cite me in the wiki if you start a glossary ;-): There are "properties" which is a synonym for "tags" (a list of key/value pairs), "keys" which are the name of one property and "values" which are user defined strings associated to a key. Sometimes, "property" (one pair of key/value) is carelessly used as a "value" only. "tag" (synonym for "property") may be used as just a key or just a value. "attributes" are an other synonym of "properties". (The sentence "The foo is bar on dingus" means: "The key 'foo' has the value 'bar' on the object 'dingus'." ;-) > In terms of using XML, that would be good as a transfer format. But, how > is the data actually held. There doesn't seem to be anything in the wiki > about that. I know there are some servers, but what database system is > being used? First of all: From the talk@openstreetmap.org's point of view, it should be of (almost) no interest, how the things are organized behind the scene ;-) But the properties are equal seperated pairs of strings that transferred over the new as a semicolon seperated string, terminated by a single semicolon. The server saves this in database as a varchar in exact this format. I don't know what happen if you try to specify a semicolon as key or value ;-) There is a proposal to change the way it is transfered so that every property is in a single xml tag, but this is not implemented in the server yet. (I think this is only supported by JOSM yet). > Is it specific to this project? There isn't a high level overview about > how all this fits together. Personally I never liked second level documentation (it seems to be out of date the time it is written.. ;). But if you want to create one, do it. No problem here ;-). I will fix anything I am aware of in the wiki.. :---) > There also seems to be some problems when two people are editing the "same > area". Yes. > Which is a point I was curious about (but, I'll leave that for > another time) Why are you curious? This kind of problems exist in every heavily distributed system. I would have been surprised if OSM does not have any problems with two people working on the same area at one time ;-) Ciao, Imi. From evan at prodromou.name Tue Feb 28 20:43:39 2006 From: evan at prodromou.name (Evan Prodromou) Date: Tue Feb 28 20:43:47 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Geographic names and lat/long pairs Message-ID: <1141159419.13806.22.camel@zhora.1481ruerachel.net> So, the eerily-named National Geographic Intelligence Agency (NGIS) of the United States has a huge database of geographic names and lat/long pairs, updated monthly, available for download online: http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntry_files.html Being the product of a US government agency, the data is in the public domain and free for any use. It doesn't cover the United States -- for bureaucratic reasons, that stuff is covered by another agency. US data can be downloaded here: http://geonames.usgs.gov/stategaz/index.html Of course, the files are in different format. I guess we should all be grateful that you don't have to buy reel-to-reel tapes by mail order. Now, that all said: this seems like valuable information that could be useful for OpenStreetMaps. Is there a way that this could/should be uploaded to the OSM server? Kept up-to-date on a monthly basis, without overwriting local modifications? There are several million data points, and a non-trivial number of them are synonyms. How would that work? ~ESP -- Evan Prodromou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/5b2949e5/attachment.htm From openstreetmap-L at gj0.net Tue Feb 28 21:58:47 2006 From: openstreetmap-L at gj0.net (Etienne Cherdlu) Date: Tue Feb 28 21:58:58 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fcd02310602281358h2ba19e9bx76c7ee93c51ee995@mail.gmail.com> Colin You can use the RESTful API to interrogate the database from your web-browser. For example, the following URL will get a set of nodes and segments for an area I have been working on recently: http://yourUserName%40yourPassword@www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.2/map?bbox=-0.44,51.38,-0.43,51.39 (If you are using IE you will see the XML result in the borwser, if you are using Firefox you will get a blank page and need to do a View/Page Source to see the XML that was returned). This is a tiny example of the kind of thing you will get back: You'll see that what we refer to as labels are rendered in an attribute called tags. Each label is a semi-colon delimited name/value pair. I hope, in the future, that this changes to something like this: yes path yes Thames Path JOSM While using a comma as a sub-delimiter does have limitations, it is usable now without any software changes, and can be converted to XML quite easily in the future: For example: can become: yes path A317 NR4 Surrey Cycle Routes, No 1 Since it is probable that there is some street name somewhere that has a comma in it it may be better to pick some other character, such as | or ~ or %, but it may be difficult to get universal agreement on a character that is within easy reach on non-UK/US keyboard layouts. I, for one, prefer comma because the meaning of "A317,NR4,Surrey Cycle Routes No 1" is quite natural and intuitive compared to, say, "A317%NR4%Surrey Cycle Routes No 1" which could be quite offputting to the new/novice user. Etienne On 2/28/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > Ah... My understanding of what a label is must be wrong. This goes back to > my other mail about the need for a glossary of terms. > > My understanding of a label was something like name=M90 > Another label might be class=motorway > They would both apply to the same link > > But it appears that a label is some sort of amalgamation of all of these. > > In terms of using XML, that would be good as a transfer format. But, how > is the data actually held. There doesn't seem to be anything in the wiki > about that. I know there are some servers, but what database system is being > used? Is it specific to this project? There isn't a high level overview > about how all this fits together. There also seems to be some problems when > two people are editing the "same area". Which is a point I was curious about > (but, I'll leave that for another time) > > Regards, > Colin. > > > On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu wrote: > > > > Colin > > Currently, as I understand it labels are implemented (in some places) as > > a single semi-colon delimited string, eg "class=motorway; name=M1;". > > > > I'd much prefer to go the XML way using elements to identify properties > > of a road, but this can be cumbersome and would take some time to get > > implemented. Using a comma (or some other character) as a list delimiter > > was a quick and simple proposal to get something that is workable and > > up-and-running straight away. We can always convert the data to XML when > > the software is ready for it. > > > > I guess we could specify an escaping convention for data that really > > needs to contain a comma. eg route=A317, NR4, Surrey Cycle Guide\, No 3. > > > > Do you have thoughts on any other options? > > > > Etienne > > > > On 2/28/06, Colin Mackay wrote: > > > > > > I'm not entirely sure a comma separated list would be a good idea. > > > While I cannot see any commas being used naturally as part of a route > > > designation, I can envisage some strangely named street containing commas. > > > If a convention for dealing with this sort of thing is to be used, it must > > > be used consistently throughout otherwise people get confused. > > > > > > In some places in Scotland, and I'm sure around Europe too, there are > > > streets with two names because there are two dominant languages in the area > > > (Scots Gaelic & English for example). There are also examples of dual named > > > streets in Edinburgh where both names are in English. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Colin. > > > > > > > > > On 28/02/06, Etienne Cherdlu < openstreetmap-L@gj0.net > wrote: > > > > > > > On 2/27/06, Colin Mackay < colin.mackay@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > route1=M9 > > > > > route2=M876 > > > > > > > > > The xml way of describing this would be: > > > > > > > > M9 > > > > M876 > > > > > > > > As OSM labels perhaps a comma separated list would be sufficient: > > > > route=M9, M876 > > > > > > > > Etienne > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > talk mailing list > > > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > talk mailing list > > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20060228/577e36d0/attachment.html From steve at asklater.com Tue Feb 28 22:35:52 2006 From: steve at asklater.com (SteveC) Date: Tue Feb 28 22:36:13 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Geographic names and lat/long pairs In-Reply-To: <1141159419.13806.22.camel@zhora.1481ruerachel.net> References: <1141159419.13806.22.camel@zhora.1481ruerachel.net> Message-ID: <20060228223552.GB27241@asklater.com> * @ 28/02/06 08:43:39 PM evan@prodromou.name wrote: > So, the eerily-named National Geographic Intelligence Agency (NGIS) of > the United States has a huge database of geographic names and lat/long > pairs, updated monthly, available for download online: > > http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntry_files.html > > Being the product of a US government agency, the data is in the public > domain and free for any use. > > It doesn't cover the United States -- for bureaucratic reasons, that > stuff is covered by another agency. US data can be downloaded here: > > http://geonames.usgs.gov/stategaz/index.html > > Of course, the files are in different format. I guess we should all be > grateful that you don't have to buy reel-to-reel tapes by mail order. > > Now, that all said: this seems like valuable information that could be > useful for OpenStreetMaps. Is there a way that this could/should be > uploaded to the OSM server? Kept up-to-date on a monthly basis, without > overwriting local modifications? There are several million data points, > and a non-trivial number of them are synonyms. How would that work? It's whats used in the city search... but yes it should go in to OSM proper. Somehow. have fun, SteveC steve@asklater.com http://www.asklater.com/steve/ From barry at barryhunter.co.uk Tue Feb 28 23:08:57 2006 From: barry at barryhunter.co.uk (Barry Hunter) Date: Tue Feb 28 23:09:48 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] Geographic names and lat/long pairs References: <1141159419.13806.22.camel@zhora.1481ruerachel.net> Message-ID: <06e501c63cbc$07ef7690$0300a8c0@Xyanda> > > So, the eerily-named National Geographic Intelligence Agency (NGIS) of > the United States has a huge database of geographic names and lat/long > pairs, updated monthly, available for download online: > > http://earth-info.nga.mil/gns/html/cntry_files.html > > Being the product of a US government agency, the data is in the public > domain and free for any use. > > It doesn't cover the United States -- for bureaucratic reasons, that > stuff is covered by another agency. US data can be downloaded here: > > http://geonames.usgs.gov/stategaz/index.html > > Of course, the files are in different format. I guess we should all be > grateful that you don't have to buy reel-to-reel tapes by mail order. > > Now, that all said: this seems like valuable information that could be > useful for OpenStreetMaps. Is there a way that this could/should be > uploaded to the OSM server? Kept up-to-date on a monthly basis, without > overwriting local modifications? There are several million data > points, and a non-trivial number of them are synonyms. How would that > work? There is a second id column that is the same for all the synonums (well thats the theory) so you can deal with that. However the data isnt all that accurate , the reason for this is the lat/long is only to the nearest minute. I guess this is less of a problem with bigger cities, but for smaller places, the 'point' can be the other side of another village :( From lars at aronsson.se Tue Feb 28 23:37:01 2006 From: lars at aronsson.se (Lars Aronsson) Date: Tue Feb 28 23:37:44 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: David Sheldon wrote: > The best solution would probably to store the tag data in > another table of the database with a number of tags per item > that is tagged. This is more relational, and has no problems > with deliminators. Yes, the current "label" concept is totally anti-SQL. But at the same time, the segments are under version control. The rows are not updated, but a new row is inserted with the same ID but a new timestamp and a new username. So you can track the edit history, just like for wiki articles. And how do you solve that with a fully relational model? The current OSM API version 0.2 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/REST doesn't really give access to the version controls, but the next version API could do this. The need for version control is also a show stopper for applying a traditional GIS database (PostGIS or MySQL GIS functions). Within the Wikipedia community, Erik M?ller has been designing a "Wikidata" system that should be capable of applying version control to relational data. But I don't know if he is done yet. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata Perhaps one way is to keep old versions in a separate archive table, where snapshots of objects are stored according to the current aggregate "label" concept (one row per version), but to use a fully relational model for the current data. This would allow advanced SQL queries on the current data (e.g.: give me streets where bicycles are allowed, having names starting with A, within the polygon border for this city), but not on historic data (give me ... as OSM looked in November). We should probably stick to the GIS terminology, where "label" is a name printed on a map, and street names and types are "attributes". -- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se From colin.mackay at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 23:57:07 2006 From: colin.mackay at gmail.com (Colin Mackay) Date: Tue Feb 28 23:57:11 2006 Subject: [OSM-talk] labels for road names and route designations In-Reply-To: References: <8fcd02310602271646t2fd28d10nf41e4a4a28f87a8f@mail.gmail.com> <8fcd02310602280839g7e969ebcha8469a5830a45e5@mail.gmail.com> <20060228173800.GI26552@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: [Sorry Lars, you'll get two copies of this as I hit reply and it went only to you rather than the group] On 28/02/06, Lars Aronsson wrote: > David Sheldon wrote: > > > The best solution would probably to store the tag data in > > another table of the database with a number of tags per item > > that is tagged. This is more relational, and has no problems > > with deliminators. > > Yes, the current "label" concept is totally anti-SQL. But at the > same time, the segments are under version control. The rows are > not updated, but a new row is inserted with the same ID but a new > timestamp and a new username. So you can track the edit history, > just like for wiki articles. And how do you solve that with a > fully relational model? The current OSM API version 0.2 > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/REST > doesn't really give access to the version controls, but the next > version API could do this. A couple of years ago I created a system version managed data in SQL Server 2000. So it is possible. > The need for version control is also a show stopper for applying a > traditional GIS database (PostGIS or MySQL GIS functions). Although a proprietary system, Smallworld GIS employed a VMDBMS (Version Managed DataBase Management System). Obviously the sheer cost of Smallworld would be a showstopper in this case. But I mention this just to show that it is possible. I wouldn't seriously suggest using Smallworld. > Within the Wikipedia community, Erik M?ller has been designing a > "Wikidata" system that should be capable of applying version > control to relational data. But I don't know if he is done yet. > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata > > Perhaps one way is to keep old versions in a separate archive > table, where snapshots of objects are stored according to the > current aggregate "label" concept (one row per version), but to > use a fully relational model for the current data. This would > allow advanced SQL queries on the current data (e.g.: give me > streets where bicycles are allowed, having names starting with A, > within the polygon border for this city), but not on historic data > (give me ... as OSM looked in November). Yes, that is along the lines of my thoughts. It would allow individual objects to be rolled back if the change was in error or found to be incorrect. > We should probably stick to the GIS terminology, where "label" is > a name printed on a map, and street names and types are > "attributes". That would be grand. :-)