<html>
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi all, first posting here, I was contacted by Mike </span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ryan</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> because he
saw my post on google groups ( <a
href="http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/7999f7ebd4cb8694/79ebbb83878c0fc3?q=uk&rnum=5#79ebbb83878c0fc3">http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/7999f7ebd4cb8694/79ebbb83878c0fc3?q=uk&rnum=5#79ebbb83878c0fc3</a>
)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have since been denied my initial request, but it is
currently on appeal and then I intend to go to the ombudsman over this, who has
informed me that I have quite a good chance of success.</span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0cm'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Unfortunately I cannot find the original email I sent them,
I think I sent it using webmail, so it may well be lost forever </span></font><font
size=2 face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings'>L</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Basically I requested coordinate info for the boundaries of
all UK Unitary Authorities (UAs) under the Freedom of Information act.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0cm'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The reply:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Our Reference:
FOI00257/Galway/QE2</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Dear Mr Galway</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Thank you for your email
dated 2nd September regarding the release of the latest boundary coordinates
for all UK Unitary Authorities. The Office for National Statistics has
decided not to disclose the information you have requested.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>BoundaryLine is an Ordnance
Survey (OS) digital boundaries product, which includes county and UA
coordinates, it is not a paint program. It also contains digitised
administrative boundaries. OS own, maintain and have copyright of this
data and are an organisation that trades on a commercial basis.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>ONS pay OS money to be
licensed to use this product within our own organisation for internal business
use only. However, ONS do not pay OS any money to enable us to pass this
data on for free or to re-sell it to others. If anyone outside of ONS
requires access to this data they should be referred directly to OS themselves.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Contact details for OS are
as follows:email:customerservices@ordnancesurvey.co.uk, telephone: 0845 6050505</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Given that the information
is data that is owned, commercially traded, and under the copyright of another organisation
and that it is already available to you directly from OS, ONS considers
that the information is exempt from the Freedom of Information Act by virtue of
sections 43 and section 21 of that Act.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>In answer to your other
questions surrounding OA and SOA boundaries:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>ONS devised and constructed
these boundaries, however some data in OS BoundaryLine was used to constrain
them. Thus OS have some Intellectual Property Right (IPR) in these
boundaries (approximately 10%). As these boundaries have been devised by
ONS for statistical outputs, we have paid OS money to allow us to pass them on
for free to others for their own personal or internal business use.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>To use your formula:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Data set A (BoundaryLine)
costs ONS and anyone else X to be licensed by OS to use it for internal
business use.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Data set B (Output Area
Boundaries) partially uses data set A and cost ONS Y to construct. As ONS
has an interest in ensuring data set B is freely available, ONS have paid OS Z
to be able to do this.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>You have the right to have
this decision reviewed internally by an internal review process and, if you
remain unhappy with the decision, by the Information Commissioner. If you would
like to have the decision reviewed please write to Mike Hughes, Group Director,
National Statistics Policy Group, Office for National Statistics, Drummond
Gate, </span></font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>London</span></font><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>, </span></font><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>SW1V
2QQ</span></font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If you have any queries
about this letter, please contact me. Please remember to quote the reference
number above in any future communications.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Yours Sincerely,</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Nicola Shearman</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>FOI Officer</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Office for National
Statistics</span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none;border:none;padding:0cm'><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>My Appeal:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I would like to appeal
against this decision.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Here is why I am disputing
your refusal:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>1) Political boundaries are
fact. They may, as you say, be based upon constraints derived from boundaryline,
but once a governmental body has defined what, for example, surrey consists of
- surely it becomes a fact. OS nor anyone else can copyright a fact. There is
no way in my mind nor in the mind of any of the copyright experts I have spoken
to that OS can "own" our countries' boundaries. If OS decided to
change the boundary of a county because they felt like it, could they ? No.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>2) Your arguments are contradictory
and don't make sense</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>From an email from
Nicola.Shearman@ons.gsi.gov.uk:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>"ONS pay OS money to be
licensed to use this product within our own organisation for internal business
use only. However, ONS do not pay OS any money to enable us to pass this
data on for free or to re-sell it to others. If anyone outside of ONS
requires access to this data they should be referred directly to OS
themselves."</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Here you are saying you do
not have the right to distribute the data I am after. What's more you say that
you are paying OS to license PRODUCT (BoundaryLine). The product and some of
the data that comes with it may be copyrighted, but some data within it and
some data generated using it may not.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>From an email from
Patricia.Fearnley@ons.gsi.gov.uk:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>"Although there would
be some work involved in compiling the boundaries for Unitary Authorities,
there is a way that this can be done without any cost to yourself. You can
order a CD of Output Area boundaries free of charge from our Census Customer
Services and I have listed their contact details below for you. <edited out
for brevity> Output Area codes are made up of 10 digits the first 6 of which
are the relevant ward code, the last 4 denote the OA's within that ward.
Therefore it is possible to derive the ward boundaries from these."</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Here you are saying that you
freely give away the data I am after, albeit in an obfuscated form. This
contradicts the last quote.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If it is a copyrighted work,
then obfuscating the data does not "un-copyright" the work, it merely
makes it a "derivative work" and still covered by the original
copyright.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Yours Sincerely,</span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none;border:none;padding:0cm'><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Clive
Galway</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Currently, that is where it stands. I am awaiting a reply to
the appeal…</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>