<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; 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orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">I too am relatively new to OSM and occasionally bemused by the arcane debates on the talk list.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Those who know about database theory should be able to decide on the merits of namespaces. I can see the value of a structured, hierarchical approach provided it is implemented in a way we lesser mortals can understand and presented via a usable interface and I have to say I'm not sure this is always the case. I have yet to get to grips with bridge tagging, never mind relations or worrying about namespaces :-)</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Chris Hill is worried about copyright issues with climbing routes and this is like lots of concerns I have seen expressed such as taking street names from actual street signs rather than from copyrighted material. If it's the name of the street, it's the name of the street, no matter how or where it is communicated. Not only am I not an expert on databases but I am equally ignorant of the finer points of copyright law. But PLEASE! A street name cannot be copyright and printing it on a piece of paper or causing it to appear on a screen is hardly the stuff of intellectual property. SteveC rightly debunked the whole map copyright issue at the beginning of this month and we need to recognise humbug and treat it with the contempt it deserves.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">JOSM imports waypoints with GPX tracks and I would like to see Potlatch do the same, but I came across something this week about the terrifying risk of accidentally importing copyright stuff such as the location of Garmin's headquarters. What?! If Garmin put this information on every device they sell they would probably be delighted if it accidentally appeared in Open Street Map. If not, I would like to see them sue.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; ">elvin.ibbotson</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#606040" face="Helvetica" size="3"></font></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">David Ebling <<a href="mailto:dave_ebling@yahoo.co.uk">dave_ebling@yahoo.co.uk</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 34px; text-indent: -34px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">25 April 2008 08:46:47 BDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 21px; text-indent: -21px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 50px; text-indent: -50px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>[OSM-talk] namespaces</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't know if I count as a "new user" (started late</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2007) but I can't see any benefit from this</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"namespace" business. I'm technically minded, but not</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">an expert geek by any means, and not familiar with the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">concept of "namespaces".</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On this occasion I find "Ockham's Razor" convincing.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">i.e. K.I.S.S.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">If something adds no benefit, (and I've been following</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">this bizarre discussion and have yet to be convinced</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of any benefit whatsoever) then why should we add a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">whole load more characters to loads of the tags we add</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to things? It will lead to more typos, more errors,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">more confusion about correct tagging, increase the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">size of the db, and raise the barrier to entry for OSM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">contributors. It's already quite challenging for some</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">new members to get the hang of the editors, and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">getting harder with things like relations. We don't</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">want OSM data to only make sense to people familiar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with the concept of "namespaces" do we? Or was that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the intention?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Lets keep OSM as accessible as possible.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dave</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Chris Hill <<a href="mailto:chillly809@yahoo.co.uk">chillly809@yahoo.co.uk</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 34px; text-indent: -34px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">25 April 2008 11:28:43 BDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 21px; text-indent: -21px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">OSM Talk <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 50px; text-indent: -50px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>[OSM-talk] Climbing routes</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Leaving the namespace issue aside, how would one collect the information about climbing routes? The routes I climbed didn't have signs or the like to gather from the site. All of the climbing guides I have that describe the routes, including their name, grade, number of pitches etc are copyright. Are there copyright free sources of this information?<br> <br> Cheers, Chris<br> </font><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">talk mailing list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></body></html>