<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Sans'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Richard,</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">I use both JOSM and Potlatch. Each has its own strengths and would be missed if it were to disappear. Equally, each could (and I'm sure will) be improved. I'm not sure what Cloudmade's motivation is. As a commercial company are they looking to make money from their new editor? Or are they intending to present it to the OSM community as a replacement for Potlatch?</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">On the question of ActionScript: I haven't used it (or Flash) but I have done quite a bit of JavaScript and a whole lot of Java programming. I don't know what the ActionScript 1 experience is like but I find using JavaScript like driving in fog (difficult to know where to go or where you went wrong) and would use Java every time. If the ActionScript 1/3 relationship is anything like JavaScript/Java I would jump ship at the earliest opportunity (and if Steve & Nick will give you some of their VC cash to do it, all the better!).</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">I'm sure you have tremendous respect from OSM people and will have plenty of support. I know how I would feel in your place and I know from experience that it is likely to look totally different when it all settles out. Potlatch works fine for now and from what you say no-one has even started coding another Flash editor, so why not take some time out as you suggest and let the dust settle. I bet if you rebuilt Potlatch from the bottom up, using a better language, it would be all that any of us could ask for.</div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; ">elvin ibbotson</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande'; font-size: 11px; "><br></div></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 14px; "><div style="text-indent: 0px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Lucida Sans'"><br></font></div><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Richard Fairhurst <<a href="mailto:richard@systemeD.net">richard@systemeD.net</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 34px; text-indent: -34px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">1 May 2008 18:35:59 BDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 21px; text-indent: -21px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>, <a href="mailto:dev@openstreetmap.org">dev@openstreetmap.org</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 50px; text-indent: -50px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>[OSM-talk] The future of Potlatch</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[warning - long ponderous e-mail follows!]</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi all,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A fairly weighty issue concerning the future of Potlatch has arisen, and I'm completely baffled as to what to do - so I thought I'd "ask the community" for thoughts and advice.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">CloudMade (Steve and Nick's VC-funded company set up to commercialise OSM data, <a href="http://www.cloudmade.com">www.cloudmade.com</a>) wants to commission a new online Flash editor for OSM. It would, I believe, probably be written by developers from Stamen Design (<a href="http://www.stamen.com">www.stamen.com</a>): some of you will remember that Stamen's Tom Carden wrote OSM's early Java editing applet, and they've also written a slippy map in Flash called Modest Maps.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As you can imagine, this has taken me aback a bit.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As I understand it, their main issue is a technical one. Potlatch is written in ActionScript 1, which is the same language as JavaScript, but for Flash. The latest version is ActionScript 3, which is much more like Java for Flash. The end user doesn't notice a difference, but the programming style is very different.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">CloudMade believes this is holding back the development of OSM: that if the editor were written in the latest version of the language, more Flash designers would come to work on it, resulting in a better editor. Steve cites OSM's move from pure Ruby to Ruby on Rails as an example of how a contemporary language encourages more people to contribute. And they're also worried that if I were run over by a bus then no-one would be able to speak ActionScript 1 and maintain Potlatch.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm not so sure. I think people are beginning to contribute code to Potlatch; that as essentially JavaScript it's approachable enough; and that the problems of attracting developers is symptomatic of core OSM in general (as per <a href="http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/sites/rails_port">http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/sites/rails_port</a>).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I hope that Potlatch, as something maintained by an active community participant _for_ the community, has demonstrated a pretty rapid rate of improvement anyway. It's meant to be small and compact, of course, not a a bells-and-whistles editor like JOSM: nonetheless, in the last few months, for example: it's become the only editor yet to offer revert/history, gained very good relations support, background layers, flexible GPX import, etc. And there's a lot of stuff on the way, mostly focusing on usability - from a generic 'undo' and pop-up help panel to a new, super-user-friendly tagging panel with draggable POI icons and things like that. It's got faults, everything has, but it's come a long way in the last year. For what it's worth I think it's the best thing I've ever coded.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">For most purposes AS3 probably is a better language - except for the fairly major proviso there's no open-source player even in development. Indeed, if I were starting all over again I'd probably do it in AS3, and in a couple of years I may well migrate Potlatch to AS3 (or 4, or whatever) anyway. But right now it's more important to spend time improving usability for mappers, given that - like most people here - I do have a full-time job which isn't OSM (which isn't computer-related at all, in fact) and consequently time is not unlimited.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So I really don't know what to do.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Part of me thinks that the most important thing is that Potlatch is still available and users are offered the choice. Part of me thinks, well, if there's going to be a new Flash editor, there's no point in me doing any development on Potlatch from today forward. Part of me wants to say "well, screw you" and walk away. And part of me wants to take CloudMade up on its OSM Grants scheme (<a href="http://blog.cloudmade.com">http://blog.cloudmade.com</a>/) and say, ok then, I'll announce a medium-term feature freeze, take a few weeks' holiday, learn AS3 and recode it for a large amount of $$$. I'm utterly stumped and would welcome suggestions.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Thanks for reading. :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">cheers</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Richard</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>