<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 37px; text-indent: -37px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Sebastian Spaeth <<a href="mailto:Sebastian@SSpaeth.de">Sebastian@SSpaeth.de</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 34px; text-indent: -34px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">30 May 2008 14:16:59 BDT</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 23px; text-indent: -23px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Cc: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 50px; text-indent: -50px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>Re: [OSM-talk] National borders in the British Islands</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">elvin ibbotson wrote:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As I understand it the numbers are not the problem, it</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">arises from people not knowing which is the right number to use (eg.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">England/Scotland border admin_level 2 or 4?). This is why I think</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">numbers are useful in the data but users should not have to know what</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">numbers to use. Rather they should be presented with choices using words</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">they understand which then put the right numbers in the database.</div> </blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The problem is not at all about whether you let user choose a number or</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">from a list of wordings. The issue at hand here is whether Wales country</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">border is of the same type as Austria's is.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's true this was the original issue, and (as I have already said) I would rank the Welsh and Scottish borders at the same level as US states, but my contributions have been about the way the admin_level is presented to the user.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This is what wars are fought over and you cannot solve the issue by</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">either numbers or by having people select from a list "municipal" or</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"country" border.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> <blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Yes, I'm sure they would rather pick from such a menu. Mapping to the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">relevant boundary and admin_level tags should be trivial as the wiki</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">page manages it. I'm sure implementations are welcome.</div> </blockquote></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The issue is not at all whether there's a nice drop down list or not.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">People work already using descriptions on the wiki.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I for one do not want to have to be flicking backwards and forwards between wiki pages looking up the correct tagging convention when I am trying to edit the map. I much prefer simply choosing from the options Potlatch or JOSM present to me. Unfortunately, all to often, you need to consult the wiki and I believe this is likely to put a lot of new users off. I was told only a very small proportion of people who register as users are actually active in building the map. This could be one of the reasons why. The key=value tag approach is great for extending OSM into specialist fields or adding metadata but the core properties have to be standardised. That is why we have the guides on the wiki and arguments over the uses of these tags. I just think there could be improvements to the way the core tags are handled in the database and editor software, is all :-)</div><div><br></div><div>elvin</div></div></body></html>