<p>Since I'm using Potlatch to edit the map, I start the tagging of a walking path/road etc. by selecting the presets for the "walking man". Then, I select by the surface and permissibility, which for a peds only, gravel, 4ft wide public path ends up as higway=track and surface=gravel. But isn't highway=footway the preferred tagging for this?</p>
<p><blockquote type="cite">On May 30, 2010 12:03 PM, <<a href="mailto:talk-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br><br>Send talk mailing list submissions to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (andrzej zaborowski)<br>
2. Re: Questions regarding the mapping of hiking trails<br>
(Sami Dalouche)<br>
3. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (Anthony)<br>
4. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (John Smith)<br>
5. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (John Smith)<br>
6. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (Anthony)<br>
7. Re: Cloudmade routing issue (Anton Popov)<br>
8. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (Mikel Maron)<br>
9. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (Ulf Lamping)<br>
10. Re: On the ground rule on the wiki (Rory McCann)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:12:31 +0200<br>
From: andrzej zaborowski <<a href="mailto:balrogg@gmail.com">balrogg@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTilAaAAOHSyTx2Ig11mszAC3iDoHUbWceTxFmsyv@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTilAaAAOHSyTx2Ig11mszAC3iDoHUbWceTxFmsyv@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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On 30 May 2010 09:40, John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On 30 May 2010 15:39, Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> "If the dispute can not be resolved through discussion, then the simple<br>
>> default rule is that whatever name, designation, etc are used by the people<br>
>> on the ground at that location are used in the non-localized tags."<br>
><br>
> Isn't that kinda asking for an edit war where there is disputed<br>
> territory with different names by different languages possibly in<br>
> multiple languages?<br>
<br>
Why? By my reading it is to quiet such edit wars, so the exact<br>
opposite. See how this rule is applied in Belgium with streets having<br>
three names and all three printed on street signs.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:16:34 -0400<br>
From: Sami Dalouche <<a href="mailto:skoobi@free.fr">skoobi@free.fr</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Questions regarding the mapping of hiking<br>
trails<br>
To: <a href="mailto:john@jfeldredge.com">john@jfeldredge.com</a><br>
Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <1275225394.12673.0.camel@samxps><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Sun, 2010-05-30 at 03:21 +0000, John F. Eldredge wrote:<br>
> Also, the name "Van Hoevenburg Trail" doesn't necessarily mean that it passes through the Van Hoevenburg Property. That might be the name of the current land-owner, the name of a former land-owner, or simply the name of some notable person whom the trail was named after.<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
thanks for your answers.<br>
By "property", I was referring to the key/value pairs to tag ways, not<br>
anything else...<br>
<br>
Sami Dalouche<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:17:29 -0400<br>
From: Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTimnlbla3DecNIcM3ZUM8ttrB-oYZ8Ey1jub3Eiv@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimnlbla3DecNIcM3ZUM8ttrB-oYZ8Ey1jub3Eiv@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 3:40 AM, John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 30 May 2010 15:39, Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> > "If the dispute can not be resolved through discussion, then the simple<br>
> > default rule is that whatever name, designation, etc are used by the<br>
> people<br>
> > on the ground at that location are used in the non-localized tags."<br>
><br>
> Isn't that kinda asking for an edit war where there is disputed<br>
> territory with different names by different languages possibly in<br>
> multiple languages?<br>
><br>
<br>
>From what I can tell, it was actually the solution to such an edit war. How<br>
"map what the people on the ground say" turned into "map what's on the<br>
ground", I can't figure out.<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 23:19:45 +1000<br>
From: John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTin2PX9V6Wk8gC9xfVSlt6n-dUTMnwfvidM52T4d@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTin2PX9V6Wk8gC9xfVSlt6n-dUTMnwfvidM52T4d@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On 30 May 2010 23:17, Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> From what I can tell, it was actually the solution to such an edit war. How<br>
> "map what the people on the ground say" turned into "map what's on the<br>
> ground", I can't figure out.<br>
<br>
Seems like it would logically go the other way round, from map what<br>
was on the ground to map what people on the ground say...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 23:26:30 +1000<br>
From: John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: andrzej zaborowski <<a href="mailto:balrogg@gmail.com">balrogg@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTimmPtyOGiX7Sd9sV13ztjn6FY1mSMZVSiQJ2lj5@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTimmPtyOGiX7Sd9sV13ztjn6FY1mSMZVSiQJ2lj5@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
On 30 May 2010 23:12, andrzej zaborowski <<a href="mailto:balrogg@gmail.com">balrogg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Why? By my reading it is to quiet such edit wars, so the exact<br>
<br>
Why... simple, you can't verify what is in someone's brain as true, at<br>
best you get a consensus, but that may be limited in scope, I guess it<br>
comes down to the importance of the object being mapped.<br>
<br>
> opposite. See how this rule is applied in Belgium with streets having<br>
> three names and all three printed on street signs.<br>
<br>
Ok so it works some times for some places, may not be applicable to<br>
all situations leaving things up to not being verifiable.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:28:06 -0400<br>
From: Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTikIi24oid8dWlk1Qc9IrERe-U6hJ56v_3XxXThn@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTikIi24oid8dWlk1Qc9IrERe-U6hJ56v_3XxXThn@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 9:19 AM, John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 30 May 2010 23:17, Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> > From what I can tell, it was actually the solution to such an edit war.<br>
> How<br>
> > "map what the people on the ground say" turned into "map what's on the<br>
> > ground", I can't figure out.<br>
><br>
> Seems like it would logically go the other way round, from map what<br>
> was on the ground to map what people on the ground say...<br>
><br>
<br>
I'm not sure what it means to "logically go" one way or the other, but the<br>
earliest reference I can find to any sort of "on the ground rule" is<br>
November/December 2007, and it's that one quoted at<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes</a> . If you can find an earlier<br>
one I'd be quite interested.<br>
<br>
In any case, more important than the etymology of the phrase "map what's on<br>
the ground" is what it means and whether or not it's good advice. In terms<br>
of its use in excluding verifiable information I think it is quite<br>
problematic. When a route isn't written "on the ground" that's exactly when<br>
it's most useful to have it identified in a map.<br>
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Message: 7<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 17:05:40 +0300<br>
From: Anton Popov <<a href="mailto:apopov@cloudmade.com">apopov@cloudmade.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Cloudmade routing issue<br>
To: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AANLkTikO5mWgs8cai4aISa6OEaf3t9KfJLaJT3Ebzz20@mail.gmail.com">AANLkTikO5mWgs8cai4aISa6OEaf3t9KfJLaJT3Ebzz20@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
Hello Nathan,<br>
<br>
This is CM navigation engine bug. It's already in the most priority issues<br>
list, but still I cannot guarantee the ETA.<br>
Sorry for your feedback response delay - there's might be some technical<br>
problems, I will try to check that.<br>
<br>
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
> I know this isn't the Cloudmade list, but a recent thread here got<br>
> some results. I used the feedback link but never got a response.<br>
><br>
> If you go to<br>
> <a href="http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=40.257259&lng=-74.289401&zoom=16&directions=40.2545894931206,-74.28884267807007,40.256497279719156,-74.29014086723328,40.25585043964603,-74.29341316223145&travel=car&styleId=1&opened_tab=1" target="_blank">http://maps.cloudmade.com/?lat=40.257259&lng=-74.289401&zoom=16&directions=40.2545894931206,-74.28884267807007,40.256497279719156,-74.29014086723328,40.25585043964603,-74.29341316223145&travel=car&styleId=1&opened_tab=1</a><br>
> and remove destination point B, it changes to a much longer route. I<br>
> believe all the turn restrictions are correct (this is a jughandle,<br>
> where you exit right to turn left), but the routing engine doesn't<br>
> like to use it. Can someone make sure they're aware of it?<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> talk mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Best regards,<br>
Popov Anton.<br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 10:09:41 -0700 (PDT)<br>
From: Mikel Maron <<a href="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com">mikel_maron@yahoo.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:611444.90486.qm@web56502.mail.re3.yahoo.com">611444.90486.qm@web56502.mail.re3.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
<br>
> Right now, the only mention of the "on the ground" rule on the wiki is<br>
<br>
> here: <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule</a><br>
> Should a separate page be created about how it applies more generally?<br>
<br>
The intention of us devising the On the Ground rule was only for Dispute resolution, originally in response to the situation in Cyprus.<br>
<br>
It really shouldn't be taken as a more general rule. Just for instance, localised names of places are not very often found on the ground.<br>
<br>
-Mikel<br>
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Message: 9<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:34:00 +0200<br>
From: Ulf Lamping <<a href="mailto:ulf.lamping@googlemail.com">ulf.lamping@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4C02A188.5010000@googlemail.com">4C02A188.5010000@googlemail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Am 30.05.2010 19:09, schrieb Mikel Maron:<br>
><br>
> > Right now, the only mention of the "on the ground" rule on the wiki is<br>
>> here: <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule</a><br>
> > Should a separate page be created about how it applies more generally?<br>
><br>
> The intention of us devising the On the Ground rule was only for Dispute<br>
> resolution, originally in response to the situation in Cyprus.<br>
><br>
> It really shouldn't be taken as a more general rule. Just for instance,<br>
> localised names of places are not very often found on the ground.<br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
Regards, ULFL<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 10<br>
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:01:44 +0100<br>
From: Rory McCann <<a href="mailto:rory@technomancy.org">rory@technomancy.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] On the ground rule on the wiki<br>
To: andrzej zaborowski <<a href="mailto:balrogg@gmail.com">balrogg@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4C02B618.7080303@technomancy.org">4C02B618.7080303@technomancy.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
On 30/05/10 14:12, andrzej zaborowski wrote:<br>
> On 30 May 2010 09:40, John Smith <<a href="mailto:deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com">deltafoxtrot256@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> On 30 May 2010 15:39, Anthony <<a href="mailto:osm@inbox.org">osm@inbox.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> "If the dispute can not be resolved through discussion, then the simple<br>
>>> default rule is that whatever name, designation, etc are used by the people<br>
>>> on the ground at that location are used in the non-localized tags."<br>
>><br>
>> Isn't that kinda asking for an edit war where there is disputed<br>
>> territory with different names by different languages possibly in<br>
>> multiple languages?<br>
><br>
> Why? By my reading it is to quiet such edit wars, so the exact<br>
> opposite. See how this rule is applied in Belgium with streets having<br>
> three names and all three printed on street signs.<br>
<br>
Or Ireland, which has the Irish (name:ga) and English names on all signs.<br>
<br>
I found a road today (<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/3789374" target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/3789374</a>)<br>
that has 2 signs across the road from each other, both have the same<br>
English name ("Chancery Place"), but each has a different Irish name<br>
("Pl?s Seansaire" vs "Pl?s na Seansaireachta"). I had to make an<br>
educated guess based on how new each sign was.<br>
<br>
Rory<br>
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End of talk Digest, Vol 69, Issue 82<br>
************************************<br>
</blockquote></p>