<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.<br>-Mikel<br><div><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> David Murn <davey@incanberra.com.au><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SteveC <steve@asklater.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "talk@openstreetmap.org" <talk@openstreetmap.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat, April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki<br></font><br>On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC
wrote:<br>> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had<br>> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have<br>> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.<br><br>What a load of bollocks. Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or<br>strategy after feedback from this list? The various committees do what<br>they please when they please, that wont change. It appears that the<br>announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small<br>part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the<br>way that we as a community are treated. If SWG and OSMF feel they have<br>the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then<br>those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the<br>efforts of the community they refuse to consult with. Maybe SWG needs<br>to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it
doesnt mean you make major<br>decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the<br>minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause<br>a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of<br>their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.<br><br>> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people<br>> on this list don't like it.<br><br>So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep<br>pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like<br>seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because<br>5-10 might dislike their idea? Seriously, where did we find this<br>handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their<br>ideas? Apparently watching this discussion.<br><br>>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo<br>itself was mostly positive, the
displeasure has been with the process<br>used to change things. Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're<br>starting to expect from those in power lately.<br><br>> That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without<br>> treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas<br>> appreciated.<br><br>My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they<br>serve, rather than a bunch of noise. Exactly how strong does OSMF think<br>the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt<br>a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?<br><br>David<br><br>> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer <<a ymailto="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com" href="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com">dieterdreist@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron <<a ymailto="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com">mikel_maron@yahoo.com</a>>:<br>> >> From: Simon Poole <<a ymailto="mailto:simon@poole.ch" href="mailto:simon@poole.ch">simon@poole.ch</a>><br>> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the WDWG (Web<br>> >>> Design Working Group)<br>> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the primary way<br>> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues with it.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > the logo is not an usability topic.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing anything would<br>> >> be a good start.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like<br>> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent<br>> > him), and one day
later some logos are changed on the front page (some<br>> > still are old versions).<br>> > <br>> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:<br>> > <br>> > 1.<br>> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?<br>> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our<br>> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief<br>> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures now though<br>> > <br>> > 2.<br>> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima<br>> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have<br>> > people work on design who... know how to design and build things"<br>> > <br>> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is<br>> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if<br>> > there are
apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a<br>> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design<br>> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,<br>> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and<br>> > show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print<br>> > material and maps(!)...<br>> > <br>> > Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative<br>> > process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine<br>> > them, ...<br>> > <br>> > Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the<br>> > same is valid (in a different way) also for design (2.) and even more<br>> > for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are not done on the front<br>> > page.<br>> > <br>> > cheers,<br>> > Martin<br>> >
______<br>> > <br>> > [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo:<br>> > <a href="http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8" target="_blank">http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8</a><br>> > <br>> > _______________________________________________<br>> > talk mailing list<br>> > <a ymailto="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>> > <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>> > <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> talk mailing list<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>> <a
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