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Agreed.<br>
<br>
On 4/30/2011 7:31 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:460475.4578.qm@web161603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
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<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.<br>
-Mikel<br>
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</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
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<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
David Murn <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:davey@incanberra.com.au"><davey@incanberra.com.au></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SteveC
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:steve@asklater.com"><steve@asklater.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">"talk@openstreetmap.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org"><talk@openstreetmap.org></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat,
April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki<br>
</font><br>
On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:<br>
> You will also find discussion of this list in that
meeting. If I had<br>
> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything
there would have<br>
> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would
happen.<br>
<br>
What a load of bollocks. Has the OSMF ever changed its
direction or<br>
strategy after feedback from this list? The various
committees do what<br>
they please when they please, that wont change. It appears
that the<br>
announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and
while a small<br>
part has been about the logo change, a big part of the
discussion is the<br>
way that we as a community are treated. If SWG and OSMF
feel they have<br>
the power to do what they want without consulting the
community, then<br>
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not
be using the<br>
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with. Maybe
SWG needs<br>
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you
make major<br>
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word
note in the<br>
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it
might cause<br>
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes
aware of<br>
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.<br>
<br>
> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least
5 or 10 people<br>
> on this list don't like it.<br>
<br>
So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like
to keep<br>
pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries)
doesnt like<br>
seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+
people) because<br>
5-10 might dislike their idea? Seriously, where did we find
this<br>
handful of people who cant handle a couple of people
disliking their<br>
ideas? Apparently watching this discussion.<br>
<br>
>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the
feedback to the logo<br>
itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with
the process<br>
used to change things. Sadly this is pretty much on-par
with what we're<br>
starting to expect from those in power lately.<br>
<br>
> That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything
without<br>
> treating this list as noise. We need to get away from
that. Any ideas<br>
> appreciated.<br>
<br>
My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the
public they<br>
serve, rather than a bunch of noise. Exactly how strong
does OSMF think<br>
the project and data would be, if everyone who had an
opinion (who wasnt<br>
a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com"
href="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com">dieterdreist@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com">mikel_maron@yahoo.com</a>>:<br>
> >> From: Simon Poole <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:simon@poole.ch"
href="mailto:simon@poole.ch">simon@poole.ch</a>><br>
> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG
has turned in to the WDWG (Web<br>
> >>> Design Working Group)<br>
> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of
the site is a the primary way<br>
> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are
definitely issues with it.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > the logo is not an usability topic.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that
actually doing anything would<br>
> >> be a good start.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized
that. Looks like<br>
> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web
(or someone sent<br>
> > him), and one day later some logos are changed on
the front page (some<br>
> > still are old versions).<br>
> > <br>
> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:<br>
> > <br>
> > 1.<br>
> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming
BTW?<br>
> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but
there's an issue with our<br>
> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief<br>
> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing
test failures now though<br>
> > <br>
> > 2.<br>
> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have
opinions on Fukushima<br>
> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's
much better to have<br>
> > people work on design who... know how to design
and build things"<br>
> > <br>
> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo
above the one that is<br>
> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to
point at. Why, if<br>
> > there are apparently no designers in the SWG,
should there be such a<br>
> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe
setting up a design<br>
> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo
change is a big deal,<br>
> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people
using OSM data and<br>
> > show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers
and other print<br>
> > material and maps(!)...<br>
> > <br>
> > Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is
an iterative<br>
> > process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects
you like, recombine<br>
> > them, ...<br>
> > <br>
> > Like software deployment requires testing (see
irc-log above, 1.) the<br>
> > same is valid (in a different way) also for design
(2.) and even more<br>
> > for UI-design. Usually the first experiments are
not done on the front<br>
> > page.<br>
> > <br>
> > cheers,<br>
> > Martin<br>
> > ______<br>
> > <br>
> > [1] (12:35:35 PM) SteveC: Go look at this logo:<br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8"
target="_blank">http://raraken.deviantart.com/art/OpenStreetMap-Icon-Logo-174454488?q=gallery:Raraken/6244368&qo=8</a><br>
> > <br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > talk mailing list<br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org"
href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk"
target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
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