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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=NL link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>In general i know Henk as a reasonable man,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>and I know he is in politics in the Netherlands<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>so she should knew better then referencing to this <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>would-be-dictator Pierens Doodle Poll.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Read it and you will understand why is some “democratic” countries revolutions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>started. This Is what I call blackmail democracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>(the Poll does not even mention the CT) The Poll starts as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-US style='color:#31849B'>You are not a member of the OSMF but in February 2010, you will be asked to accept the new Odbl or your account will be closed and all you contributions deleted from the database (or hidden which is the same).<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><i><span lang=EN-US style='color:#31849B'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>If one does not read carefully, one might even conclude that as<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>a result of this poll your account may be closed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Serge Wroclawski wrote about this poll:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>…separately by the community by a different community member who had concerned over the first poll.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I wonder what the concerns might have been….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>This is a very good example of how democracy should not work.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Kadhaffi would do no better.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>And it makes me fully understand why TimC writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>The community polls were post-hoc rationalizing, window dressing, unofficial and poorly worded. In legitimate democratic votes, the vote occurs BEFORE the decision to implement a plan takes place. It is tacitly acknowledged in that the mechanism in the CTs is different from what previously had happened. But really the past doesn't matter as much as what we do next<span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Gert Gremmen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>-----------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><img width=150 height=50 id="Afbeelding_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.gif@01CC2A6E.59C25960" alt=Osm><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P</span><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:green'> Before printing, think about the environment.</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Van:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Henk Hoff [mailto:toffehoff@gmail.com] <br><b>Verzonden:</b> Monday, June 13, 2011 11:55 PM<br><b>Aan:</b> Nathan Edgars II<br><b>CC:</b> talk@openstreetmap.org<br><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Nathan Edgars II <<a href="mailto:neroute2@gmail.com">neroute2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>Serge Wroclawski-2 wrote:<br>><br>> Next, about a year later, a vote amongst OSMF membership was<br>> taken.This isn't the board, but the entire membership. Since it was a<br>> decision that was to effect the direction of the OSMF, this makes<br>> sense to me..<br>><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>This was before my time, but from what I understand it was not a vote on<br>whether to switch to ODbL, but whether to start the process of creating a<br>license and deciding whether we should switch.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Before everybody understands things differently.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The OSMF-membership vote *was* about moving to the ODbL and the (older version of) CT.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Outcome: 98% of voters in favor of the proposed change, 2% against.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>During the time of the OSMF-membership vote, there was also a vote initiated by the community, which can be seen here:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://doodle.com/feqszqirqqxi4r7w">http://doodle.com/feqszqirqqxi4r7w</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Outcome: 75% would accept the new license, 11% undecided, 14% not (at that time)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>There has been similar polls by the community during that time with similar results.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Both (the vote and the poll) show a large majority in favor of the proposed change. Again: ODbL combined with CT.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This was done *before* all the new sign-ups were asked to sign the CT. Based on this outcome of the membership-vote the process to change the license was continued. The polls in the community were no reason to change this decision.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Henk<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>