There has been recently a similar discussion in the Italian OSM talk list.<br>Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the officio road signs.<br>
So the road sign says "Bolzano-Bozen", hence the name tag is name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen name:it=Bolzano.<br><br>In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in Switzerland.<br>
In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra<br><br>The legal bases in Italy and in Switzerland are different but clear, and the road signs in both countries reflect the different legal approaches accurately.<br>
<br>If the road signs in the Crimea reflect the legal situation correctly then the mappers should take what they see on the road signs, plus whatever name:xx tags are useful. If however the road signs (which are important for the users of the map) do not reflect the legal situation, than you have a conflict. <br>
(In that case I would tend to put in the "name" tag in OSM what is on the road signs, giving priority to the map users' interest, but this is my personal opinion)<br><br>Volker<br>Padova, Italy<br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 25 July 2012 09:35, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:talk-request@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-request@openstreetmap.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send talk mailing list submissions to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Svavar Kjarrval)<br>
2. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Mike N)<br>
3. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Toby Murray)<br>
4. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
(Jaakko Helleranta.com)<br>
5. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Svavar Kjarrval)<br>
6. Re: Coastline generation resumed (Paul Norman)<br>
7. Naming disputes in Ukraine (Frederik Ramm)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000<br>
From: Svavar Kjarrval <<a href="mailto:svavar@kjarrval.is" target="_blank">svavar@kjarrval.is</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:500EF0A5.2000301@kjarrval.is" target="_blank">500EF0A5.2000301@kjarrval.is</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
I checked the terms for the Google Maps API and noticed that the<br>
collection of data, as done by the tool, is forbidden. Does anyone know<br>
of any other services which could provide reference distances?<br>
<br>
- Svavar Kjarrval<br>
<br>
On 23/07/12 21:42, Pieren wrote:<br>
> I've not checked the tool in details but if I understand correctly,<br>
> the reference distance numbers are coming from Google API. Imo,<br>
> massively extracting distance like this is a copyright infringement,<br>
> even if it's just to "compare", in the same way using GMaps to check<br>
> the street names correctness in OSM.<br>
><br>
> Pieren<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> talk mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:04:33 -0400<br>
From: Mike N <<a href="mailto:niceman@att.net" target="_blank">niceman@att.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:500EF1C1.3000805@att.net" target="_blank">500EF1C1.3000805@att.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:<br>
> Does anyone know<br>
> of any other services which could provide reference distances?<br>
<br>
Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM<br>
instance created? I would think that this would not violate the ODBL<br>
or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:50:43 -0500<br>
From: Toby Murray <<a href="mailto:toby.murray@gmail.com" target="_blank">toby.murray@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAJeqKgsfmcG_XPuSiszrqHJsNPrxo6qMdLDOHoP_QBSjNrQTiA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAJeqKgsfmcG_XPuSiszrqHJsNPrxo6qMdLDOHoP_QBSjNrQTiA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Mike N <<a href="mailto:niceman@att.net" target="_blank">niceman@att.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Does anyone know<br>
>> of any other services which could provide reference distances?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM instance<br>
> created? I would think that this would not violate the ODBL or CC-BY of<br>
> either state if it is just used for route comparison.<br>
<br>
Does anyone know if Mapquest stopped diff consumption when the bot<br>
ran? When I first looked I thought they had stopped but now I can't<br>
route across Australia so maybe they were just a little behind when I<br>
looked before.<br>
<br>
Or maybe Cloudmade? They seem to still be able to route across Australia...<br>
<br>
Toby<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:54:39 +0000<br>
From: "Jaakko Helleranta.com" <<a href="mailto:jaakko@helleranta.com" target="_blank">jaakko@helleranta.com</a>><br>
To: "Mike N" <<a href="mailto:niceman@att.net" target="_blank">niceman@att.net</a>>,<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<1048947188-1343159791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-78512242-@b12.c6.bise6.blackberry><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Clodmade's (most!(!)) current data is from last December.<br>
Close enough?<br>
Dunno if you can query their API on the distance, so u gotta check that out.<br>
<br>
I just got a response from them the other day asking about when it will be updated and the response was that their engineers are assigned to other things...<br>
So, it seems that it will be one pre-redaction OSM reference for a while.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
-Jaakko<br>
<br>
Sent from my BlackBerry? device from Digicel<br>
--<br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B509-37-26%2091%2054" value="+50937269154" target="_blank">+509-37-26 91 54</a>, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Mike N <<a href="mailto:niceman@att.net" target="_blank">niceman@att.net</a>><br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:04:33<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
<br>
On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:<br>
> Does anyone know<br>
> of any other services which could provide reference distances?<br>
<br>
Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM<br>
instance created? I would think that this would not violate the ODBL<br>
or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:03:33 +0000<br>
From: Svavar Kjarrval <<a href="mailto:svavar@kjarrval.is" target="_blank">svavar@kjarrval.is</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:500EFF95.2090807@kjarrval.is" target="_blank">500EFF95.2090807@kjarrval.is</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
<br>
On 24/07/12 19:04, Mike N wrote:<br>
> On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:<br>
>> Does anyone know<br>
>> of any other services which could provide reference distances?<br>
><br>
> Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM<br>
> instance created? I would think that this would not violate the ODBL<br>
> or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.<br>
<br>
I was thinking more about as a general QA thing, not just post-redaction.<br>
<br>
- Svavar Kjarrval<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> talk mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:42:35 -0700<br>
From: Paul Norman <<a href="mailto:penorman@mac.com" target="_blank">penorman@mac.com</a>><br>
To: 'osm-talk' <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline generation resumed<br>
Message-ID: <02e001cd6a28$4c51ae70$e4f50b50$@<a href="http://mac.com" target="_blank">mac.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII<br>
<br>
Minor update: I am now running three times a day. Exact upload times depend<br>
on runtime which is largely a factor of dev server speed. Errors points are<br>
definitely going down. Many thanks for David Groom for both hosting the<br>
visualization and for often fixing errors before I can get to them, even<br>
though I know when my runs finish.<br>
<br>
> From: Paul Norman [mailto:<a href="mailto:penorman@mac.com" target="_blank">penorman@mac.com</a>]<br>
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:55 PM<br>
> To: 'osm-talk'<br>
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Coastline generation resumed<br>
><br>
> I have resumed my daily generation of coastline files. These are<br>
> generated with the coastcheck program[1] from my jxapi database starting<br>
> at 5 AM pacific time. They take 3-4 hours to generate and upload,<br>
> depending on my internet speed at the time.<br>
><br>
> The completed files are uploaded to<br>
> <a href="http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/" target="_blank">http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/</a><br>
><br>
> If opening these shapefiles in QGIS be sure to create a spatial index<br>
> for tolerable performance.<br>
><br>
> There is a visualization of errors at <a href="http://www.wightpaths.co.uk/coast/" target="_blank">http://www.wightpaths.co.uk/coast/</a><br>
><br>
> Many of the errors appear to be short errors between ways that became<br>
> disconnected. More complicated errors are often best fixed by deleting<br>
> the bad coastline and retracing.<br>
><br>
> [1]: <a href="http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/coastcheck/" target="_blank">http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/coastcheck/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:33:43 +0200<br>
From: Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a>><br>
To: Talk Openstreetmap <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:500FA157.6090508@remote.org" target="_blank">500FA157.6090508@remote.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the<br>
following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate.<br>
<br>
The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. To the untrained eye<br>
there's not much of a difference to Russian but of course the devil is<br>
in the detail, here's a street name example:<br>
<br>
name:ru = ????????? ?????<br>
name:uk = ????????? ??????<br>
<br>
There are many areas in Ukraine where the language used by people who<br>
live there is mainly Russian. The clearest example is the Crimea<br>
peninsula (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea</a>) where the official<br>
language is still Ukrainian, but Russians make up 60% of the population<br>
(against 25% Ukrainians) and therefore Russian is the language generally<br>
used locally.<br>
<br>
One Ukrainian mapper told me that if we there *were* mappers in the<br>
Crimea (which is an unknown to me), "I'm 100% sure that any Crimean<br>
mapper would take the Russian-language side".<br>
<br>
We have photos from the Crimea that document street signs in Russian,<br>
but other Ukrainians say that technically signs must be in Ukrainian<br>
there and if they aren't then that's just because the government lacks<br>
the funds to change them.<br>
<br>
Predictably, edit wars have broken out in OSM about street names in the<br>
area; most streets were created with Russian names initially, sometimes<br>
they were there for years, until this year members of the Ukrainian<br>
community started renaming streets to Ukrainian (often, it seems,<br>
automatically).<br>
<br>
The Ukrainian community is hotly discussing these edits<br>
(<a href="http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12367" target="_blank">http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12367</a>) but cannot seem<br>
to come to a conclusion; our general naming rule ("The default name<br>
(occupying the 'name' tag without suffix) should be the name in whatever<br>
language is used locally.", from <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names" target="_blank">wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names</a>) is<br>
interpreted by some to mean "locally in the area" and by some to mean<br>
"locally in the country".<br>
<br>
Based on the facts It would be relatively easy for us to decree that the<br>
"name" tag should be Russian in the Crimea.<br>
<br>
The problem is that Ukraine has lots of communities where there is still<br>
a Russian majority but not as pronounced as in the Crimea. Of course the<br>
issue is highly political, with ethnic Russians fighting for their<br>
identity against a government that forces them to use Ukrainian in<br>
official business etc., so if someone now comes along in OSM and changes<br>
the name of the street they live in to Ukrainian then that means much<br>
more to them than just a name on a street. But where to stop? If we say<br>
to use Russian in the Crimea, then what about some city in Eastern<br>
Ukraine where people also use more Russian than Ukrainian? And what if<br>
the use is maybe even local to a city quarter? (What if residents of San<br>
Francisco's Chinatown demand that the name tag in their area be in Chinese?)<br>
<br>
The best solution to this conflict is, of course, a dual-language map<br>
where people can switch. Neighbouring Belarus has problems similar to<br>
Ukraine with regards to the Russian language, and they have created a<br>
dual-language map on <a href="http://openstreetmap.by" target="_blank">openstreetmap.by</a>. In the long run I hope we'll have<br>
a world-wide map that covers all languages of the world (Jochen is<br>
working on something like this, funded by Wikipedia, see recent<br>
<a href="http://blog.jochentopf.com/" target="_blank">http://blog.jochentopf.com/</a> entries). In the medium term, maybe OSMF<br>
could help people in the Ukraine set up a dual-language map. But in the<br>
short term, a solution needs to be found regarding the name tag.<br>
<br>
(Simply removing all name tags in the Crimea, as we once did with the<br>
Jerusalem name tag when there was a conflict, is probably not something<br>
that would go down well.)<br>
<br>
So, my questions to you are<br>
<br>
1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in<br>
Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the<br>
official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian?<br>
<br>
2. The general question: What exactly is the "local" language in an area<br>
- can we come up with some rule of thumb that says "if X% of people in<br>
an area of at least Y sq km use the language..." or so?<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
<br>
--<br>
Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49?00'09" E008?23'33"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
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<br>
End of talk Digest, Vol 95, Issue 37<br>
************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br>