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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 18.10.2012 23:34, schrieb Jérome
Armau:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAM45rtGkd4P0RPZGDnqRgoZosCjF1QM1SL9FsV3rWHX_N24pUw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Keep in mind that we're trying to make the
openstreetmap project accessible to a larger share of the
population. In every single country, that means appealing to a
non-computer-geek crowd. For example, the usage of "<span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">-Djosm.</span><span
class="il"
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,204);color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">home</span><span
style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=<dir>"
is dark magic to most people. Even though it's acceptable to
most users of this list who are well used to the inner workings
of their computer system, it's just plain wrong to advise any
non-power-user to do this.</span></blockquote>
I disagree that it's about non-power users here.<br>
As far as I understood we speak about a relatively big group of
mappers from France doing these imports.<br>
I understood that it's more or less impossible for the French
community to speak English, be it to understand received messages
written in English or documenting the import in a language that
would be readable for the majority of the worldwide community (I
hope, that's still true, but it was said in any previous email that
the cadastre stuff lacks documentation in English in the wiki).<br>
<br>
[General note: you in the following refers to the french cadastre
importers group, not to you, Jérome alone or personally]<br>
<br>
Within that relatively large group of importing mappers I guess
there is one or a small subgroup of power-users.<br>
Why should that be impossible to work out a best practice for that
imports, e.g. to suggest the separate account and the Djosm.home
parametrization for JOSM for easy switching?<br>
A .bat and .sh script doing that would be easily set up, I think. I
even guess (untested) it would be possible to create a script where
all josm data is syncronized by symlinks or something like that
except of the user settings to apply on upload.<br>
<br>
Obviously you are able to explain how to use the data sets as a
source, but it should not be possible to add a small script to use
for starting JOSM when importing? or other stuff?<br>
<br>
You managed to create a dedicated JOSM plugin for the cadastre
import [1], that even contains a josm command line to use because of
the memory limit of the JVM, but it should be impossible to add a
separat parameter to that? <br>
<br>
Someone of you created a dedicated interface [2] for the cadastre
import stuff, but a simple tool to enable every mapper to conform to
the import rules should be impossible?<br>
<br>
I agree that issues like mails written in English aren't the best
thing the DWG could have done to contact about these issues - but as
far as I know there's no French member in the volunteer group of the
DWG who want's to help here, and if you complain, that it's not
allowed to require French mappers to know English enough to read
messages received, why do you require non-french mappers to know how
to write (usually that's more difficult) mails in French for the
case that particular mapper is not able to read English (keep in
mind: still a lot of wiki pages are not translated to French, same
as for most other languages).<br>
At least I think that every mapper on the world should be aware that
it's an international project; and if I get a message in an
international project I don't understand and which is not obviously
spam (I don't know stats about that, but personally I don't see a
spam problem in osm messaging), I ask back, telling the sender that
I'm not able to understand it due to language problems, yes, if not
possible otherwise, I do that in my own language.<br>
<br>
If I as a German mapper, who's not able to read or write (or speak)
French and I would get a message from someone from France in French,
I would try to translate it, ask someone to translate it for me
and/or respond with a short note that I'm not able to read that
message and politely ask for the message in German or English.
Everything I read in the mails about cadastre is that it's not
acceptable to get a Message in English, and therefore everything is
the DWGs fault (more or less).<br>
<br>
French cadastre import as I see it as a non-french speaking mapper
seems to be some kind of not French local chapter stuff, but
isolated French OSM community: own rules (to some extend), no
documentation for foreigners, less motivation to communicate to
foreigners when contacted by them.<br>
<br>
Personally and as I understand many messages of this thread I think
most issues could be solved, but that needs communication and
collaboration; and I didn't read ANY question for help (but at least
one offer). Instead rules that seem not to be objected by many
others are constantly opposed as not applying for obscure reasons or
not acceptable for reasons like the mandate of DWG or things like
that.<br>
<br>
Why?<br>
<br>
regards<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:JOSM/Fr:Plugin/Cadastre-fr">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:JOSM/Fr:Plugin/Cadastre-fr</a><br>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://cadastre.openstreetmap.fr/">http://cadastre.openstreetmap.fr/</a><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAM45rtGkd4P0RPZGDnqRgoZosCjF1QM1SL9FsV3rWHX_N24pUw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>
<font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222">In
non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the
average contributor:</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222">- does not
have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
standards)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222">- does not
know about services such as Google translate</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif" color="#222222">I'm confident
a significant portion of French, German, Italian and Spanish
contributors are in this case. These people are not
represented on this mailing list, but need to be taken into
account in these decisions.</font></div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:13 PM,
Cartinus <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cartinus@xs4all.nl" target="_blank">cartinus@xs4all.nl</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel
wrote:<br>
> By the way, could you stand receiving any message in
a language you<br>
> cannot understand. that seems to be looking for<br>
> infuriating the non-English speaking users?<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="im">On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:<br>
> - the way in which DWG is undertaking its
monitoring+blocking, by<br>
> sending aggressive messages to contributors in a
language which they<br>
> can be presumed not to understand<br>
<br>
</div>
<sarcasm on><br>
So a requirement for the membership of the DWG should be
that you are a<br>
polyglot. Of course all messages about issues in country X
should be<br>
send in the official language and those of all known
minority languages<br>
of the country.<br>
<sarcasm off><br>
<br>
<br>
I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor
to a<br>
multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to
use<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://translate.google.com" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com</a>>
or any other such service.<br>
<br>
The continued use of the argument "the message was not in
French" is<br>
just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of
the<br>
internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in
projects like<br>
OSM, you better accept it.<br>
<br>
<br>
---<br>
m.v.g.,<br>
Cartinus<br>
<br>
<br>
P.S. No, English is not my native language.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
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