<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div class="" style=""><span class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">Hi Frederik</span></span></div><div class="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12.727272033691406px; font-family: monospace; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></span></div><div class="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12.727272033691406px; font-family: monospace; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> Somehow I have the impression that either the proposal was colossally</span><br
clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> mis-worded, or it as somehow acquired a spin or social dynamic ("OMG</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> they're targeting HOT!!!!!") that was never intended and is not, in my</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> opinion, in any way present in Paul's request for consultation.</span><br class="" style=""><br></span></div><div class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="">No, didn't think this was intended. Yes perhaps mis-worded. I think as phrased,
it's possible unintended consequences that could effect HOT, among other organizations, which haven't had any problems like the ones targeted by the proposed policy.</div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""> </span><br class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> There's nothing punitive here; there's an attempt to make life easier</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> for everyone. It is not about regulating anything - I don't think Paul</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> said anything about anyone enforcing mapping rules or whatever - it
is</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> just about transparency and disclosure.</span><br class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">That's good. I agree, it's a lot about how it's phrased and communicating. When something is labelled as "required", then there's a implication of enforcement. The alternative of a "best community practice" may be the same thing practically, but sounds pretty different.</span><br class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></div><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> If someone teaches OSM to a group of people and instructs them to
set up</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> an account - does it really make matters worse if you ask them to write</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> one sentence on their profile page ("I am Joe Smith and I am learning</span><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> OSM in Mikel's OSM for Dummies course")? Would this not be good practice</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> already, even if not expressly written anywhere?</span></span></div><div class="" style=""><br></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Definitely a good practice. Is there a way to encourage this better during the sign up process? Or after sign up, to alert users that they have a little more to do to make their profile complete? Like some kind of alert next to the user drop down on the top - right?</span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">> </span><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">In my eyes, this means a fundamental change in approach compared to the</span></div><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;"
class="">>average mapper who does what the like in their spare time; one that is</span><br clear="none" style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">>worth documenting</span><div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Ok, we're probably violently agreeing with each other at this point ;). Agreed. My point is that we should strike the right tone and perception.</span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">> </span><span style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;">Yes, I think these "Group" ideas could go a long way to help.</span></div><div class="" style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial,
'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;"><div class="" style="font-family: monospace;"><div class="" title="Show message history" style=""><br></div></div></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Right on! Let's get groups-sketch finished up and deployed.</span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">-Mikel</span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron</span><br></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class="" style=""> <font size="2" face="Arial" class="" style=""> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:03 PM, Frederik Ramm <frederik@remote.org> wrote:<br class="" style=""> </font> </div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" class=""> <div class="" style="">Hi,<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">On 14.05.2014 23:07, Mikel Maron wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style="">> I have to say, my initial reaction to this proposal was that it was<br clear="none" class="" style="">> heavy handed, unnecessarily punitive, over reaching, and not in the<br clear="none" class="" style="">> spirit of OSM. A cure worse than the disease.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">Somehow I have the impression that either the proposal was colossally<br
clear="none" class="" style="">mis-worded, or it as somehow acquired a spin or social dynamic ("OMG<br clear="none" class="" style="">they're targeting HOT!!!!!") that was never intended and is not, in my<br clear="none" class="" style="">opinion, in any way present in Paul's request for consultation.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">Frankly I see nothing "punitive" or "heavy handed" here but that may<br clear="none" class="" style="">really be a matter of perception.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">If you're in the HOT business then you might immediately see how this<br clear="none" class="" style="">could apply to some of your projects and might make life harder. When I<br clear="none" class="" style="">read the proposal, I think of the countless man-hours (and frustration<br clear="none" class="" style="">and desperation and heated tempers) involved when mappers on the German<br
clear="none" class="" style="">forum once again find a strange edit pattern and over the course of days<br clear="none" class="" style="">and hundreds of messages the truth slowly emerges.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">There's nothing punitive here; there's an attempt to make life easier<br clear="none" class="" style="">for everyone. It is not about regulating anything - I don't think Paul<br clear="none" class="" style="">said anything about anyone enforcing mapping rules or whatever - it is<br clear="none" class="" style="">just about transparency and disclosure.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">If someone teaches OSM to a group of people and instructs them to set up<br clear="none" class="" style="">an account - does it really make matters worse if you ask them to write<br clear="none" class="" style="">one sentence on their profile page ("I am Joe Smith and I am learning<br
clear="none" class="" style="">OSM in Mikel's OSM for Dummies course")? Would this not be good practice<br clear="none" class="" style="">already, even if not expressly written anywhere?<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">> We want to encourage people how to do<br clear="none" class="" style="">> things well within OSM, rather than discourage them from getting<br clear="none" class="" style="">> involved at all.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">I should be surprised if the measures outlined by Paul were to affect<br clear="none" class="" style="">more than a small franction of mappers. The overwhelming majority of OSM<br clear="none" class="" style="">are "ordinary mappers" who do this as a hobby and who would hardly ever<br clear="none" class="" style="">fall under these rules. They would likely not even read or know of them<br clear="none" class="" style="">so how would
they be discouraged?<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">> No reason to take a defensive stance, unless an epic<br clear="none" class="" style="">> problem is erupting.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">We're trying to look ahead just a tiny bit. We have seen the problems<br clear="none" class="" style="">that Wikipedia had with this; we're already seeing SEO spam in OSM<br clear="none" class="" style="">(which would not be helped by this policy but proves that we're not<br clear="none" class="" style="">magically exempt from businesses abusing us) - can it hurt to be prepared?<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">> To summarize what's new here, what the DWG is essential asking for is an<br clear="none" class="" style="">> association between organized groups and individual user, and details on<br clear="none" class="" style="">> those
organized groups.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">Yes, almost; personally I'd say we are concerned about those cases<br clear="none" class="" style="">where, essentially, if the community wants someone to change their<br clear="none" class="" style="">mapping they would have to speak to that person's supervisor. So it's<br clear="none" class="" style="">not so much your average mapping party but really something where the<br clear="none" class="" style="">organisation has some kind of command structure and the individual<br clear="none" class="" style="">mapper isn't free to map what they want.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">In my eyes, this means a fundamental change in approach compared to the<br clear="none" class="" style="">average mapper who does what the like in their spare time; one that is<br clear="none" class="" style="">worth documenting.<br clear="none" class=""
style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">> Say I start a mapping project in a slum in Nairobi. I actually want to<br clear="none" class="" style="">> bring everyone involved together, to communicate among ourselves, to<br clear="none" class="" style="">> promote our project within the community, to help track and advise what<br clear="none" class="" style="">> folks are mapping. I want a Group, and I want to integrate it as part of<br clear="none" class="" style="">> the training process. As a bonus, anyone who has questions about what's<br clear="none" class="" style="">> going on, can find the association from individual users easily, ask<br clear="none" class="" style="">> questions of the whole group or group admin, if needed.<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">Yes, I think these "Group" ideas could go a long way to help.<div class="" id="yqtfd88127" style=""><br clear="none" class=""
style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">Bye<br clear="none" class="" style="">Frederik<br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">-- <br clear="none" class="" style="">Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:frederik@remote.org" href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" class="" style="">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><br class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>