<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="" class=""><br style=""></div><div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="" style="">There are various ways to influence what is mapped.</span></div><div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="" style=""><br class="" style="" clear="none"></span></div><div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class=""
style="">The
Mapnik stylesheet itself has probably a significant impact on what is
mapped. While it shows commercial businesses including fast-food, no
mention of doctor clinics, social and community services.</span></div><br style="" class="" clear="none">Mappers
are surely influenced by the Map tools they are using. If they cannot
see community related POI's, it wont convince them to add these.<br class="" style="" clear="none"> <div style="" class=""> </div><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-style:italic;color:rgb(0, 0, 191);font-weight:bold;">Pierre <br style="" class=""></span><br style="" class=""></div> <div class="" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div class="" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="" class="" dir="ltr"> <hr style="" class="" size="1"> <font style="" class="" face="Arial" size="2"> <b style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-weight:bold;">De :</span></b> Johan C <osmned@gmail.com><br style="" class=""> <b style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-weight: bold;">À :</span></b> Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org> <br style=""
class=""> <b style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-weight: bold;">Envoyé le :</span></b> Jeudi 19 juin 2014 15h22<br style="" class=""> <b style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-weight: bold;">Objet :</span></b> Re: [OSM-talk] Just facts?<br style="" class=""> </font> </div> <div style="" class=""><br style="" class=""><div style="" class="" id="yiv5577786439"><div style="" class=""><div style="" class="" dir="ltr"><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">On Thursday 19 June 2014, Frederik Ramm wrote:</span><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><br style="" class="" clear="none"></span></div>
<div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><The discussion has been led here on talk and on osmf-talk. A statement</span><br style="" class="" clear="none"></div><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">by Emilie Laffray on osmf-talk best summarizes the idea:</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none">
<br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none"><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">"Ultimately, map data is pretty much fact and whether it exists or not</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none">
<span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">is a binary statement. Now, could someone slip "advertisement" like</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none"><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">places of all shops of a specific brand? Yes! Do we care? No, as long as</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none">
<span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">the data is factual. I don't care if someone is being paid to put data</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none"><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">in OpenStreetMap as long as this data is correct and valid..."></span><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><br style="" class="" clear="none">
</span></div><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"></span><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><br style="" class="" clear="none"></span></div><div style="" class=""><All these are judgment calls where we trust our mappers to make the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
right decision. All these are a far cry from the "binary statement" and<br style="" class="" clear="none">the easy fact checking that people often ascribe to OSM.><br style="" class="" clear="none"></div><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><br style="" class="" clear="none">
</span></div><But this should not make ourselves blind to the fact that there's also<br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none"><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">quite a lot of stuff in our database that is not as easy to fact-check.</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none">
<span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">I believe there is ample room to "interpret" reality in a way that is</span><br class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" clear="none"><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">not outright wrong, but has a "spin" on it - in OSM as in Wikipedia.></span><br style="" class="" clear="none">
<div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><br style="" class="" clear="none"></span></div><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">At SOTM Birmingham a workshop was aimed at mappers who wanted to share their dreams for OSM in, say, 2020. Results can be found here: </span><font style="" class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><a style="" class="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Future/Dreams">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Future/Dreams</a></font></div>
<div style="" class="" id="yiv5577786439yqt58754"><div style="" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">On the aspect of technique, editing, tools some dreams were:</span></div><div style="" class=""><ul class="" style="line-height:19.200000762939453px;margin:0.3em 0px 0px 1.6em;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:undefined, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><li class="" style="margin-bottom:0.1em;">Easy for non-techies to add data</li><li class="" style="margin-bottom:0.1em;">Consistent tagging format or rules (described)</li><li class="" style="margin-bottom:0.1em;">No federated tagging / worldwide consistency / no federational mappers</li><li class="" style="margin-bottom:0.1em;">Ability to move on from poor initial tagging conventions</li></ul><div style="" class=""><font style="" class="" color="#000000" face="undefined, sans-serif"><span class="" style="line-height:19.200000762939453px;"><br style="" class=""
clear="none"></span></font></div>
</div><div style="" class=""><font style="" class="" color="#000000" face="undefined, sans-serif"><span class="" style="line-height:19.200000762939453px;">In my work I have to deal with guidelines involving ultimately some billions of euros per year. As a professor I spoke about them wisely said: "you should always try to limit interpretation by improving the guidelines, but there will always remain room for interpretation no matter how strict the guidelines are". I think this combination can also work for OSM: continuously keep on improving the map features (as stated in the dreams), which are applicable to any mapper, paid or unpaid. Sometimes that leads to easy black-and-white situations: a motorway should not be mapped as a footway. But indeed, to a certain extent grey situations will remain. And the grey situations need interpretation. As a core value, respect will also mean mappers communicating about the reasons for their
interpretation.</span></font></div>
<div style="" class=""><br style="" class="" clear="none"></div><div style="" class="">Cheers, Johan</div></div></div><div style="" class="" id="yiv5577786439yqt64845"><div style="" class=""><br style="" class="" clear="none"><br style="" class="" clear="none"><div style="" class="">2014-06-19 12:06 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm <span style="" class="" dir="ltr"><<a style="" class="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a>></span>:<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi,<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
this is an offspring from the discussion about whether or not we are<br style="" class="" clear="none">
well advised to follow Wikimedia's example of requiring the disclosure<br style="" class="" clear="none">
of paid contributions.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
The discussion has been led here on talk and on osmf-talk. A statement<br style="" class="" clear="none">
by Emilie Laffray on osmf-talk best summarizes the idea:<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
"Ultimately, map data is pretty much fact and whether it exists or not<br style="" class="" clear="none">
is a binary statement. Now, could someone slip "advertisement" like<br style="" class="" clear="none">
places of all shops of a specific brand? Yes! Do we care? No, as long as<br style="" class="" clear="none">
the data is factual. I don't care if someone is being paid to put data<br style="" class="" clear="none">
in OpenStreetMap as long as this data is correct and valid..."<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Let us go back in time to when Wikipedia was started. I wasn't there<br style="" class="" clear="none">
then but I am pretty sure that there would have been many at the time<br style="" class="" clear="none">
who naively said something like: "An encyclopedia is a collection of<br style="" class="" clear="none">
facts and knowledge. We can argue how the facts are organised and<br style="" class="" clear="none">
presented but the content is verifiable and clear."<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
I would probably have agreed. Where and when a composer was born and<br style="" class="" clear="none">
what their most famous work is - clearly a fact, no?<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Fast-forward to the present. Wikipedia has learned the hard way that<br style="" class="" clear="none">
there is much less fact and much more open to interpretation than<br style="" class="" clear="none">
initially believed. Meanwhile in OSM, people say: "We don't have the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
same kind of problems as Wikipedia because ours is effectively a<br style="" class="" clear="none">
database of verifiable facts."...<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
This is undoubtedly true for a number of things in our database - but<br style="" class="" clear="none">
the number of exceptions is much higher than you would naively expect.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Firstly, there are cultural issues mostly to do with names. We have edit<br style="" class="" clear="none">
wars about name tags (most recently, disputed islands in South East Asia<br style="" class="" clear="none">
and territories between Ukraine and Russia) - what is the "name on the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
ground" in an area with active movement of troops?<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Another very recent example is a long discussion-cum-edit-war in Germany<br style="" class="" clear="none">
about whether or not something really *has* a German name X<br style="" class="" clear="none">
("name:de=X") or if that is a thing of past occupation<br style="" class="" clear="none">
("old_name:de=X"). This is not a fact that you can simply check, it is<br style="" class="" clear="none">
something that requires research and brings us quite far into the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
"[citation needed]" terrain already.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
But there are other and much less obscure issues, starting with the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
highway classification. There are no hard and fast rules about what is,<br style="" class="" clear="none">
for example, a primary or a secondary road; this is mainly a distinction<br style="" class="" clear="none">
that we leave to the local mapping community, and yes, there are edit<br style="" class="" clear="none">
wars about that too, and there is potential for edits with an ulterior<br style="" class="" clear="none">
motive (someone who lives on a street might downgrade it from primary to<br style="" class="" clear="none">
secondary to have less vehicles routed there, or to make his property<br style="" class="" clear="none">
look more attractive to a potential buyer).<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
We have many other situations in which we trust the mapper to do the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
right thing without being 100% verifiable. Track types are an example,<br style="" class="" clear="none">
or indeed the infamous "smoothness" tag. When we map which areas are<br style="" class="" clear="none">
"residential" and which "commercial", there's quite a bit of leeway<br style="" class="" clear="none">
there as well - you can gloss over a supermarket in a residential area,<br style="" class="" clear="none">
or you can cut a hole in the area and mark it differently; you can map<br style="" class="" clear="none">
the whole supermarket parking lot as a parking lot or you can map the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
trees and the little bushes between the rows of cars and make it look<br style="" class="" clear="none">
almost like a park.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Is something just a stream or already a river? Is something just a town<br style="" class="" clear="none">
or already a city? Does the office of a private music teacher count as a<br style="" class="" clear="none">
music school, thereby increasing the quarter's school density?<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
All these are judgment calls where we trust our mappers to make the<br style="" class="" clear="none">
right decision. All these are a far cry from the "binary statement" and<br style="" class="" clear="none">
the easy fact checking that people often ascribe to OSM.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
I believe that it is still true that most of what we collect *is* facts,<br style="" class="" clear="none">
and as long as we stick to the facts we're in the green. It may be<br style="" class="" clear="none">
disputable whether something is tracktype=grade1 or tracktype=grade2 but<br style="" class="" clear="none">
the fact that there is some kind of track in that location is not up for<br style="" class="" clear="none">
discussion.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
But this should not make ourselves blind to the fact that there's also<br style="" class="" clear="none">
quite a lot of stuff in our database that is not as easy to fact-check.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
I believe there is ample room to "interpret" reality in a way that is<br style="" class="" clear="none">
not outright wrong, but has a "spin" on it - in OSM as in Wikipedia.<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Bye<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<span style="" class=""><font style="" class="" color="#888888">Frederik<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
--<br style="" class="" clear="none">
Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a style="" class="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br style="" class="" clear="none">
<br style="" class="" clear="none">
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