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<p>I'm not proposing anything. Merely observing.</p>
<p>I am not the only one confused about which definition of "overwhelming consensus" was used...</p>
<p>--colin</p>
<p>On 2015-08-20 11:59, Paweł Paprota wrote:</p>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace">What you are proposing is basically design by committee<br /> (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee</a>) which is rampant<br /> everywhere in OSM and kills innovation. Everyone wants to pile on their<br /> own cause - be it privacy (see the latest pull request on Github<br /> regarding Gravatar for another viable contender for the Waste of Time<br /> prize) or some weird anarchy/freedom/whatever world views.<br /><br /> At the same time there's a guy (Mateusz) who took on the task of making<br /> the default style not suck - so what do people here do? Of course, let's<br /> discuss this to death until everyone agrees. But then you may find that<br /> no one wants to work with you on this anymore.<br /><br /> In Poland we have this often-used saying with regards to the political<br /> or social situation (yeah, we Poles like to complain a lot!) - it sucks<br /> but at least it's stable!<br /><br /> Paweł<br /><br /> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015, at 11:39, Colin Smale wrote:<br /><br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><br /> That discussion is only a waste of time because people hope that a consensus will magically appear. The subject of the discussion is absolutely something which deserves air-time. I am not talking about the specific case of abandoned railways, but about who has the right to decide what data has no place in OSM and order its deletion.</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">What was that famous line in Animal Farm again?</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">--colin</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">On 2015-08-20 10:53, Paweł Paprota wrote:</blockquote>
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<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">I'm taking bets on whether this thread will have more replies than the<br /> "abandoned railroads" (100+ and still going strong!) and win the prize<br /> for the Biggest Waste of Time in OSM for 2015.<br /><br /> YES WE CAN('T)<br /><br /> Paweł<br /><br /> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015, at 03:16, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">For those that did not check on Mateusz Konieczny diary entries[1[<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586</a>]], <br /> postings to this mailing list and github discussions then the Proposed <br /> Great Colour Shift might come as a surprise if it is implemented.<br /><br /> According to the github discussion there is an "overwhelming consensus" <br /> [2] on moving from current rainbow colour scheme for roads to a <br /> red-yellow only scheme. I am unsure of where this overwhelming consensus <br /> formed because I never saw it on this mailing list nor on talk-dev nor <br /> on announcements, I admit to be an infrequent IRC user but I didn't see <br /> this overwhelming consensus there and so far no one has been able to <br /> tell me where it formed or where I can find it.<br /><br /> The design goal seems straight forward, to discontinue green and blue <br /> for roads and move to red and reddish. For this to happen the decision <br /> was made to shift current primary, secondary and tertiary colours <br /> "upwards" so primary is now the colour of secondary and secondary the <br /> colour of tertiary. Leaving tertiary white.<br /><br /> Tertiary instead gets to be wider than residential and unclassified <br /> roads, but to be able to spot that you need to have it next to them to <br /> see which is the wider one.<br /><br /> This one simple change of bleaching tertiary however is something I find <br /> to be a great hindrance to mapping efforts, particularly in rural areas <br /> where the roads are isolated and panning over the map, wether in iD or <br /> using default tiles. Currently it is easy to spot tertiary roads snaking <br /> through valleys and over vast desert plains, they are yellow and the non <br /> tertiary roads are white. Tertiary is significant there as it denotes <br /> the roads between the villages and towns that are often unpaved but <br /> still the most important, even the only, road. Lesser white colours <br /> imply the roads not being between larger settlements although they could <br /> lead to hamlets. The guidelines for mapping in Africa state thus.<br /><br /> Removing the colour from tertiary makes all mapping that much harder to <br /> verify and quality check. Currently it is easy to see if a tertiary road <br /> is broken with a white unclassified bridge, not so in the proposed Great <br /> Colour Shift.<br /><br /> Mateusz has been forthcoming with all changes and done sterling work in <br /> displaying different areas and how they will look. But he acknowledges <br /> that this change is not beneficial everywhere on the map and now has a <br /> disclaimer:<br /><br /> "Among potential problems are that it is now harder to recognise road <br /> type of given road, especially in situation where there is no <br /> possibility to compare it with other road types.<br /> Such significant change will be confusing for current users of this<br /> style.<br /> UK color coding of roads is well known for many people, for them a new <br /> style - even assuming that it would be intuitive for them - will be less <br /> useful.)"<br /><br /><br /> The question really arises if this change is beneficial or not for the <br /> project. Many hours have gone into it and doing CartoCSS on all these <br /> zoom levels is not trivial. But this is a major shift on the front page <br /> of our website, a blow to those who use the default tiles through uMap <br /> or similarly and depend on the UK rainbow road style and makes life <br /> harder for mappers to visually confirm the type of road.<br /><br /> Should this be a new, alternative style instead?<br /><br /><br /> [1] <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35586</a><br /> [2] <br /><a href="https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736#issuecomment-130592532">https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736#issuecomment-130592532</a><br /><br /> _______________________________________________<br /> talk mailing list<br /><a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br /><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a></blockquote>
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