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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The situation with Crimea is not
clear-cut. It is kind of complicated. For instance, the climate in
Crimea is very dry, that is why the water from the river Dnieper
had been transferred to Crimea by an immense artificial North
Crimean Canal [1]. Now the Dnieper water is not sold to Crimea any
more.<br>
<br>
The newspaper Le Monde named Rana Dasgupta one of 70 people who
are making the world of tomorrow [2]. Speaking figuratively, an
electrician may work with wires without knowing Maxwell's
equations or Ohm's law formulas. Still, it is better that he has
some notion of the theory of electromagnetism. <br>
<br>
The same is here. We try to discuss border dispute between the
nation states. I just recommended to read an article [3] of the
well known essayist and thinker about the nation state evolution
as a political, economical, and philosophical concept. It will not
solve this dispute, but at least, its nature could be better
understood.<br>
<br>
[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal</a><br>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Dasgupta">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Dasgupta</a><br>
[3]
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta</a><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Oleksiy<br>
<br>
On 22.10.18 15:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:LPQjD-5--3-1@tutanota.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>Can you summarize parts of this article (5k+ words, in "long
read" section) that are relevant to</div>
<div>tagging of Russian and Ukrainian border in the Crimea?<br>
</div>
<br>
22. Oct 2018 00:44 by <a
href="mailto:oleksiy.muzalyev@bluewin.ch" target="_blank"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">oleksiy.muzalyev@bluewin.ch</a>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Martin,<br>
<br>
Before continuing this discussion further, I would advise to
read the amazing article "The demise of the nation state" by
Rana Dasgupta available via this link:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta</a><br>
<br>
The issue of national state boundaries is more profound and
ubiquitous than it may seem at first sight. This topic is
controversial and complicated, and Rana Dasgupta's analyses
provides some good starting-point insights.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Oleksiy<br>
<br>
On 21.10.18 16:12, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="thunderbird_quote" style="border-left: 1px
solid #93a3b8 ; padding-left: 10px ; margin-left: 5px">
<div>Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>we all know how sensible the topic of disputed
boundaries can be (they are not necessarily a big problem,
many boundary disputes like between Italy and France about
the summit of Mont Blanc / Monte Bianco, have little
bearing on the actual life of people).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Therefore we can all be satisfied there is clear
guidance from the board how to deal with this: the local
situation determines how we map, and the OSMF is explicit
here: “National borders are particularly sensitive.
Currently, we record one set that, in OpenStreetMap
contributor opinion, is most widely internationally
recognised and best meets realities on the ground,
generally meaning physical control.”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.</a>pdf </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When I recently looked at Crimea I noticed it is still
part of the Ucraine in OSM: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/60199"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/60199</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As many might know, the current boundary situation for
Crimea was frozen 4 years ago “for a short time” by the
DWG and so I asked them about their current position 2
months ago, and after I got no reply, tried to remind them
5 weeks ago, but have not yet gotten any reply, so I am
now opening this thread here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>IMHO, for consistency and credibility, we should either
recognize that Russia is actually controlling Crimea, or
we should update the disputed borders information. As I
believe the general concept of ground truth for admin
boundaries was a good idea, I would tend to the former.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also believe the actual situation has already been
ignored for too long. When the thing is still dynamic
or/and we’re in the middle of a conflict it can be wise to
step back and see for some time how things are evolving,
but 4 years are a lot of time, something like one year
would seem more reasonable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do you think?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers, Martin <br>
<br>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">sent from a phone</div>
<div><br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="thunderbird_quote" style="border-left:
1px solid #93a3b8 ; padding-left: 10px ; margin-left:
5px">
<div><b>From:</b> Martin Koppenhoefer <<a
href="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com" target="_blank"
rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">dieterdreist@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date:</b> 20. August 2018 at 10:42:33 CEST<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:data@osmfoundation.org"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">data@osmfoundation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> <b>DWG policy on Crimea</b><br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="thunderbird_quote" style="border-left:
1px solid #93a3b8 ; padding-left: 10px ; margin-left:
5px">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dear members of the DWG,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>as of this question in the help forum:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<a
href="https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/65436/what-is-the-current-position-of-the-dataworkinggroup-on-crimea"
target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/65436/what-is-the-current-position-of-the-dataworkinggroup-on-crimea</a>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I kindly invite you to reconsider and eventually
update your position on the situation in Crimea.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As you have stated in 2014, this should not be
the long term way to deal with the situation, and
short term is probably coming to an end. There is
clear guidance by the OSMF board how to deal with
disputed boundaries (as the situation seems to be
more stable than some would have liked).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My motivation is not promoting the Russian point
of view, but to act predictably and consistent wrt
sensible topics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>cheers,</div>
<div>Martin </div>
</div>
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