<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp4a6329d1yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">>"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary<div><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">depends upon his not understanding it." </span></div><div><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Ok it's a pithy quote. Is it possible that however well written, t</span>his quote may not always be right? that it's difficult but not impossible to get a man or woman to understand something, despite their position? and that my salary does not depend on me avoiding thinking freely about this project?</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Seeing that none of you arguing with me in this thread know me personally, I think it's extremely presumptuous that you think you understand me.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></div></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">> <span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed.</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Is it unfair that Christoph accuses me of being in a cult?</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div></div></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I did not accuse Christoph of being uninformed. But the general argument here certainly is -- about the capability of people involved in OSM in a corporate way having no ability to think in another frame; or that even the corporate frame can not encompass other viewpoints, only profit.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">-Mikel</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div class="ydp4a6329d1signature">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron</div></div>
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On Friday, July 26, 2019, 01:18:11 PM GMT+3, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div dir="ltr">The most well-know version is from Upton Sinclair's campaign to become<br clear="none">governor of California in the 1930's:<br clear="none"><br clear="none">"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary<br clear="none">depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair - See<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/" target="_blank">https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young man.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> "enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed lines"<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I think it's unfair to accuse Christoph of being uninformed. From what<br clear="none">I've read over the past year, he appears to be one of the few<br clear="none">individuals who are informed about the goings-on between the OSMF<br clear="none">board and corporations, who is not actually a member of either body.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 7/26/19, Mikel Maron <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com">mikel.maron@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> From Christoph...<br clear="none">>> The corporate appropriation of OpenStreetMap and the OSM community<br clear="none">>> has meanwhile all the characteristics of a cult .. But i have strong<br clear="none">>> doubts meanwhile that arguing with people who are fully immersed into the<br clear="none">>> belief system of corporate PR regarding OSM is of benefit in most cases.<br clear="none">> Well this is pretty much a statement to end the conversation, isn't it? I<br clear="none">> could say the same "cult" about the knee jerk reaction of the self appointed<br clear="none">> representatives of the "hobby mapper". It does lead me to the same<br clear="none">> conclusion, almost -- which is that there is no point discussing these<br clear="none">> topics with you people here. But where would that get us?<br clear="none">> I for one would not say anything if I did not personally believe it. I am<br clear="none">> not here representing corporate interests (at this very moment I'm writing<br clear="none">> this from the middle of Nairobi's largest slum working on OSM, rather than a<br clear="none">> comfortable room in Europe). You can still draw whatever conclusions about<br clear="none">> me you like.<br clear="none">> For me, enough with the division of OSM along these blunt, uninformed<br clear="none">> lines.<br clear="none">> From Martin...> Fakeboosts<br clear="none">> good one :)<br clear="none">>> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of<br clear="none">>> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the<br clear="none">>> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.<br clear="none">> Well that very well might be true about perception. But Facebook did not say<br clear="none">> that OSMF was supporting the project. They representing correctly. We all<br clear="none">> here get the difference and understand that HOT is a different organization.<br clear="none">> Making this distinction is not Facebook's problem, but rather HOT and OSMF<br clear="none">> should do a better job explaining the complexity of the whole universe of<br clear="none">> OSM.<br clear="none">> -Mikel<br clear="none">> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> On Friday, July 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM GMT+3, Martin Koppenhoefer<br clear="none">> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com" href="mailto:dieterdreist@gmail.com">dieterdreist@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> @mikel in Fakeboosts own blog post there is still the misrepresentation of<br clear="none">> the role OSM plays in this project, due to HOT appearing to be an official<br clear="none">> OSM body (by the mere utilization of the OpenStreetMap trademark in their<br clear="none">> company name):<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> “The RapiD tool was developed in conjunction with those in the mapping<br clear="none">> community who have been working in this area for many years. Because this<br clear="none">> tool was built with their input, it is already having an impact,” says Tyler<br clear="none">> Radford, the executive director of the Humanitarian OSM Team (HOT), which<br clear="none">> aims to make sure OSM represents all parts of the world."<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> and<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> The Map With AI team is collaborating with HOT to add more features to<br clear="none">> RapiD. For one step in that process, they’ve integrated RapiD into a<br clear="none">> development branch of HOT Tasking Manager,<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Whoever reads this and does not have deeper insights into the workings of<br clear="none">> the OSMF must get into the impression that HOT is an official part of the<br clear="none">> OSMF / OpenStreetMap, i.e. OSM is collaborating with FB.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> I am not sure if being a "corporate Gold member" already counts as being in<br clear="none">> collaboration with OSMF (likely not, because "collaboration" means "working"<br clear="none">> (labor) together, not just providing funds)<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Cheers,<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Martin<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> talk mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><div class="yqt5706499969" id="yqtfd78812"><br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">talk mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a><br clear="none"></div></div></div>
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