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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi everyone ☺</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">OK, it seems that the discussions are
going wild again in this new year. So let’s keep feelings aside
and try to answer with arguments instead ☺ Thanks everyone who
does that, you are too many to thank individually ☺<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">@Mario: I’ve seen a lot of people
saying that we shouldn’t remove the “name” tag (and because it
already led to a misunderstanding, let’s be precise: I mean the
tag whose name is exactly “name”, so we keep the “name:en”,
“name:UN:en”, etc., and I only mean that for places like oceans
and Antartica), but I haven’t seen any argument for this. Can you
elaborate on this?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The reason why I believe the “name” tag
should not be placed in such place is semantic: there is no best
local name, so let’s not put any. This then enables any renderrer
to default to a language of their choice (or to check for other,
possibly more adequate tags, like “name:UN:*”). If you put a
“name” tag here, I can’t do that. I’ve been suggesting to create a
renderrer that just uses “name:eo” if present… just to be told
right away that this is not a good solution as it would basically
chooses the Esperanto name for everything instead of just these
places where there is no default language. I think that having an
empty “name” tag or not having a “name” tag would be a nice
indication that there is not best “name” tag, and leave each
renderrer use their heuristics (or just display no name).<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">You mentioned the cities in Morocco.
This is a cool example ☺ So for instance there is this node:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798</a> (I’ve taken it
randomly: I really don’t know this region) It seems to be in a
very similar situation than the Baltic Sea we discussed before
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277</a> So if we can do it in
Morocco, would it make sense to do it in the Baltic Sea? (That was
basically what this changeset suggested:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78171743">https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78171743</a> just that this
changeset wasn’t done with the permission of the community.) I
like how it renders with the new line between each name ☺ The only
difference is that the Baltic Sea involves a couple more
languages. Any thoughts about this?<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">@Marc: You seem to understand the issue
better than me, but I didn’t understand your answer. From what you
said, the osm.org styles base themselves on the “name” tag to
determine the default style? Or is this that the way the styles
are currently defined do not enable the definition of heuristics
to pick the best “name:*” tag if the “name” tag itself is absent?
I really don’t know the styling part of OSM renderrers, but it
seems to be crucial in this discussion: can you elaborate on this?
This would really help ☺<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks in advance! ☺<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(Here follows the second part, more
clumsy and probably less important part of my message ☺)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Just to argument against some
opinions that have been raised there which made my right eyebrow
raised by two centimeters:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">— Yes, linguistic imperialism is a
thing:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique#Les_facettes_de_l'imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique_dans_les_grandes_r%C3%A9gions_du_monde">https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique#Les_facettes_de_l'imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique_dans_les_grandes_r%C3%A9gions_du_monde</a>
The English Wikipedia for this notion is quite poor, so I’m
putting the French one. Interestingly enough its discussion page
is going as wild as this very thread ☺<br>
— There have been a German-only message three days ago, and it
didn’t yield to any frenzy, yet, in this thread, people seems to
really don’t like multilanguage posts. The rules of this mailing
list are not shown when subscribing, so it is normal that not
everyone knows about them. So let’s be calm about it. (And maybe
display some rule when subscribing the mailing list?) ☺<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">— From what I remember, there is no
South-America polygon in OSM. And given that about half its
population speaks Portuguese as a main language (yes, Brazil is
a big country), choosing Spanish for the name tag may not be as
natural as it might look like.<br>
— Esperanto is not meant to be more easily understandable
without learning the language. There are languages with such
goals (Interlingua, typically). The goal of (the design behind)
Esperanto (before it started to evolve like a natural language)
is to reduce the learning time to reach fluency without
hindering on the language expressiveness.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Amike,<br>
Martin.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:bc6e139a-2db8-3a9b-2973-e53c8aa4a7b4@anche.no">
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<p>Hi Tomek, and everybody.</p>
<p>being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted
to use Spanish, or Italian. my written Latin is poor.<br>
</p>
<p>I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I
understand Polish better than Esperanto.</p>
<p>Should I "vote" on your proposal? I consider this the wrong
place for holding even the discussion. according to me, using
the English language for naming "South America" in the standard
map is bad enough, but I do not think (many) people from South
America will tell you that **here**, because people who agree
with you will not be reading you here. If I know the locals
good enough, they would want the map to be in Spanish just as
they seem to have the impression that the whole world (around
them) speaks Spanish. (I do not know many people from Cayenne,
Brazil, nor Suriname.)<br>
</p>
<p>I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the
wikipedia tag, and the fact that it generally points to the
english wikipedia version, too bad. you will not solve this by
removing the tag, you may try to educate Latin speaking people
to be more assertive, but I think it's a lost cause.</p>
<p>I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three
national languages: Morocco, and what happens there is that the
map uses the three national languages for all names, and the map
looks so clumsy this way, in particular with the Amazigh name
included (I have tested some locals on their knowledge of the
written language, and I am fairly sure that 95% of Amazigh
people can't even read it). quite regularly, you see people
editing the 'name' tag to make it less clumsy, by removing two
of the languages (those they don't like, I guess).</p>
<p>so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but
removing the 'name' and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like
the best one to me. proposing it here, even less. my guess is
that having a language option on the rendered map would be
better than this that you propose. for some locations, I indeed
prefer the openstreetmap.fr map.<br>
</p>
<p>as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in
the community: people focusing on the actual point, and people
focusing on the form. seems "cultural", and seems that European
toes are less easily stepped upon. "you may try to educate
English speaking people to be less assertive" ;=)</p>
<p>anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping,</p>
<p>MF</p>
<p>(nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough
at least.)<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4aa6c30a-18f8-4f7a-dc8b-052e27c4c8b8@disroot.org">
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W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:17413D51-7A3D-4BDB-8F9A-844200E9CFE4@softworkers.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.</pre>
</blockquote>
EO<br>
Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.<br>
<br>
Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto)
kaj iam en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne
parolas en mia lingvo?<br>
<br>
Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
PL<br>
Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.<br>
Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym
(Esperanto) i czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie
piszesz w moim języku?<br>
<br>
Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
EN<br>
<span class="tlid-translation translation" lang="en"><span
title="">I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm
not fooling around.</span><br>
<span title="" class="">I write in my (Polish) language in the
international language (Esperanto) and sometimes in your
(English), why don't you write in my language?</span><br>
<br>
<span title="" class="">Please focus on resolving the name
problem.</span></span> <br>
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