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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">There are those who;</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">think the proposal process it the only
way to create wiki pages.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">there are those who degenerate wiki
pages with few uses, to the extent of editing those wiki pages to
discourage use. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">'Any tags you like' is one mantra ...
but documenting them in the wiki and leaving them to evolve looks
to beyond some. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/2/20 5:33 pm, Rory McCann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:F26FE590-6854-4EB4-8A56-E7178EFFDF3D@technomancy.org">
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I don't know what your experience with the OSM wiki is, but I've
created new wiki pages for new tags, without bothering with
proposal pages. When has anyone told you that you need to do that?
Did someone write that down somewhere? Maybe that should be
corrected. Do you have links to where you saw that "rule"? <br>
<br>
To anyone reading this who is unsure, please feel free to edit the
wiki. 🙂 We don't have this silly rules requiring proposal pages
(as many have pointed out). <br>
<br>
(I also don't like making the wiki hard to edit for non technical
people. Think of the diversity concerns! 🙂) <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 19 February 2020 00:14:21 CET, Yuri
Astrakhan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yuriastrakhan@gmail.com"><yuriastrakhan@gmail.com></a> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow
anyone to create any kind of tags (just type it in), and on
the other we create so many hurdles to document it (we
refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead
demand that each key page go through a proposals process,
approve it, etc). I believe this is a ridiculous situation
solvable with the data items. If I, the editor, create a
new tag, I should have a way to type in a short textual
description (one/two sentences) explaining what that tag
is. Without knowing how to create wiki pages or data item
pages or using the right templates, or even knowing which
fields to fill out where. Data items allow for that.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When a data item is created automatically, it makes the
process of adding such documentation very straightforward
-- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they simply expand the (i)
button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the
description.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from
iD, without going to another page. The eventual goal is to
make it simple to add such descriptions __without__
leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without
visiting the wiki. These tools will be able to view other
metadata as well -- e.g. if this tag should be usable on a
way/node in a consistent way, regardless of the language
of the user.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at
5:54 PM Andrew Hain <<a
href="mailto:andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">andrewhainosm@hotmail.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I strongly disagree.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is perfectly useful to document the existence of
tags in the database with data items. For example one
was created for the key sub_sea:type [<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506</a>]
and it has been possible to add this it is a
discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when
editing. While it is possible in principle to add a
long form tag documentation page, and indeed the
presence of the data item is a record that one may be
worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to
research its content. As such the data item and others
like it are useful on their own.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Andrew</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div
id="gmail-m_-2921166676782134791gmail-m_3936165599729893974divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Joseph
Eisenberg <<a
href="mailto:joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joseph.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2020 17:28<br>
<b>To:</b> osm <<a
href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items"
by bot for undocumented tags</font>
<div>Â </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Data Items should not be created by bot for
undocumented tags.<br>
<br>
According to <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process</a><br>
the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data
items") are automatically<br>
created by a bot, even before a tag is
documented, if a tag has a<br>
certain standard format and more than 10 uses in
the database.<br>
<br>
The data item is created in this case with the
text "‎Created a new<br>
Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g.<br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history</a><br>
<br>
This is confusing to users. For example,
Item:Q19947 above,<br>
"landuse=research" was created before there was
a wiki page. Then<br>
yesterday a user documented the tag with a page,
but did not<br>
understand why there was already a data item:<br>
<br>
"Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding
deletion? I've just created<br>
landuse=research, but the data item<br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history</a><br>
was already existing in December '19. How was
the data item then<br>
created?"<br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F</a><br>
<br>
Besided the potential confusion caused by
creating these items by<br>
bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki
users to start<br>
editing these data items without first creating
an actual<br>
human-readable wiki page to document the tag.<br>
<br>
In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if
they properly document<br>
how tags are used, in a way that is easier for
computers to handle,<br>
but this only works if the data is maintained
and updated.<br>
<br>
Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert
other users via<br>
"Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while
the stream of items<br>
created by bots is too much for humans to
maintain, and the page names<br>
are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to
be scanned by humans.<br>
<br>
Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to
only add new data<br>
items for documented tags which already have a
wiki page in at least<br>
one language. I do not see a benefit to creating
date items for<br>
undocumented tags.<br>
<br>
Joseph Eisenberg<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
brevity.
<br>
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