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<p>Well the other bit that I wrote was:</p>
<p>"Enforcing attribution for services that you are providing
directly (aka tiles in some form) only has a small overlap with
the goals of the attribution guideline, and the avenues open to
you depend on your ToUs / contracts with your users and the legal
situation in the countries you are providing the service in.</p>
<p> I would be very very wary of doing anything that deliberately
defaces a web site without consulting with a local (to the country
the web site is in) lawyer, particularly if the message implies
wrong doing."</p>
<p>As I am not a lawyer in any country that a website could be
displayed in, I'm really the wrong person to ask. Things vary
widely by country, that is in particular: inclination and costs to
sue and protection afforded to buisiness undertakings. But it is
clear that using a neutral message and clear ToUs, is definitely
less risky than an aggressive message without ToUs.</p>
<p>Things that need to be considered:</p>
<p>- any message you display will be shown to customers / users of
the site in question and needs to toned down enough so that you
don't cause unwarranted damage to the reputation of the sites
operators. It is likely that if you get sued that the range of
options for action available to you will be considered, you will
need to show that what you did was appropriate.<br>
</p>
<p>- everybody makes mistakes, so you -will- miss existing
attribution. Anything you do needs to be able to be undone with a
simple "sorry it was a mistake", except if you have deep pockets.</p>
<p>I'm very aware that getting peoples attention is sometimes
difficult, from experience things that work: sending a fax,
registered mail, phone calls,worst case publicly messaging on
social media.</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 11.03.2020 um 16:17 schrieb joost
schouppe:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAO2_g7LZCdRfiy_kkf-BB-Mvj-CgcWOVc5NAKzGCk8EKL5e6gA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Simon,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In a volunteer community, fun things are more likely to
happen at all. So I do think the idea is worth exploring, even
if the current implementation might be risky to OSMfr or to
OSMF if implemented without much further thought.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would personally be interested in a more in depth
analysis from you. I personally don't see how a more neutral
message ("This map is based on OpenStreetMap data. Please add
the required attribution to your website. Contact us at X if
you need help.") would be more defacing or likely to lead to a
liability claim than just a blacked out map, but I would not
mind at all to be enlightened.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Joost<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op wo 11 mrt. 2020 om 15:39
schreef Simon Poole <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>As I wrote (conveniently ignored in the noise of the
vigilante rampage): "The safe, I admit also the less
fun, option, is to simply block access after giving any
required notice."</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<div>Am 11.03.2020 um 14:49 schrieb joost schouppe:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Simon,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess with small overlap you mean it's only
about people who use <a href="http://osm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">osm.org</a>
tiles, not people who use other services?</div>
<div>While that is true, the double whammy of both
heavily using resources and also not attributing
does seem like a good subgroup to start with some
measures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the case of the OSM.org tiles, I suppose this
is regulated by <a
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use</a>
. At first glance I didn't see anything providing
people who do not respect those terms. Am I missing
something, or is this a naive approach to the
problem?</div>
<div>Even if the ToU's could be lacking in detail,
couldn't we simply change them? The final section
talks about changes, which we seem to be able to
just do when we want to.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would think the biggest challenge on OSMF side
would be the workload for OWG/sysadmins.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Joost<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op zo 8 mrt. 2020 om
12:18 schreef Simon Poole <<a
href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Just for the record: <br>
</p>
<p>Enforcing attribution for services that you are
providing directly (aka tiles in some form) only
has a small overlap with the goals of the
attribution guideline, and the avenues open to
you depend on your ToUs / contracts with your
users and the legal situation in the countries
you are providing the service in.</p>
<p>I would be very very wary of doing anything
that deliberately defaces a web site without
consulting with a local (to the country the web
site is in) lawyer, particularly if the message
implies wrong doing. The safe, I admit also the
less fun, option, is to simply block access
after giving any required notice.</p>
<p>Simon <br>
</p>
<div>Am 08.03.2020 um 11:04 schrieb Yves:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> This looks at first as a
nuisance that could be perceived as a bad move,
but the feedback you're receiving rather prove
the contrary.<br>
Well done!<br>
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect,
I may consider it for Opensnowmap tiles policy?
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">Le 8 mars 2020 10:14:58
GMT+01:00, Christian Quest <a
href="mailto:cquest@openstreetmap.fr"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><cquest@openstreetmap.fr></a>
a écrit :
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p>Here is a hort report on this
experiment...</p>
<p>I started a week ago by searching OSM
France tile server logs for referer and
checked manually if the map on the
refering page was correctly attributed.</p>
<p>This allowed me to create a short list of
20 entries of sites using the french
styled tiles and the humanitarian tiles
(yes, it is made by OSM France).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I then modified our nginx based
proxy_cache configuration, to redirect
some tiles to an "attribution tile" only
for the domain in the list.</p>
<p>For two of them, I tweeted about it...
the most visible one is the moroco yellow
page service, generating a little less
than a million daily tile requests on our
servers.</p>
<p><a
href="https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234516075695525888</a></p>
<p>In less than 24 hours, the attribution
appeared and I removed them from the list.</p>
<p><a
href="https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234779931537739776</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Then I included an email address in the
attribution reminder tile... and got
emails back within a few hours.</p>
<p>Some were asking how to do the
attribution, others telling me the
attribution was now ok and asking how to
remove the reminder tiles.</p>
<p>In my answers, I also remind that our
tile service made by volunteers on donated
hardware is not unlimited and inviting
them to have a look at switch2osm to setup
their own tile server or use a commercial
provider.<br>
</p>
<p>Up to now, nobody complained :)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Yesterday, I've started automating
attribution checking using selenium. For
each referer, a python script loads the
page, searches for tiles, then looks for
attribution text or link. The result is
stored in a postgresql database which
allows to group referers by url, hostname
and ip.<br>
</p>
<p>The attribution percentage I currently
see is around 70-80% which is not that
bad.</p>
<p>My next major step is to use the same
technique to remind about tile usage
policy...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>To do something similar on <a
href="http://osm.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osm.org</a>, a
first step is to extract referers from the
cache logs, then use the automated
attribution check to evaluate the
situation.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>Le 08/03/2020 à 01:52, Nuno Caldeira a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">That would be a good
option for those that use third party
providers of OSM. But to be honest, from
my experience I highly doubt that even
corporate members of OSMF, like Mapbox
would do it, when their client Facebook
(also corporate member of OSMF) after
one year and half, still has maps with
lack of attribution or attributed to
HERE, when it's clearly OSM. </div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Sun, 8 Mar 2020, 00:46 Phil Wyatt,
<<a
href="mailto:phil@wyatt-family.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">phil@wyatt-family.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I
am sure others may have seen this
'blacklist' implementation for showing
a reminder about attribution.<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://twitter.com/cq94/status/1234528717604577282</a><br>
<br>
Worthy of consideration for <a
href="http://openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">openstreetmap.org</a>?<br>
<br>
Cheers - Phil</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France</pre>
</blockquote>
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<div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Joost Schouppe</div>
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