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<p>Hi Céline, hi all.<br>
<br>
Like you, I'm just another participant in this list*. However,
perhaps it would be helpful to refer the existing etiquette
guidelines adopted by the OSMF ages ago: <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette</a>
. It's clear that Frederik's original post didn't abide by all
of the points under "Mailing Lists" there (which include "Calmly
adding to the discussion can help keep things tame on the
mailing list" among others; clearly he did not follow those
recommendations). Rory's already rightly called that out at <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085723.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085723.html</a>
("There are many examples of people excusing how Trump acted
before the 2016 election, claiming he would be “presidential”
when elected, and you had to choose the example regarding sexual
assault?"). It's also clear that your Google document doesn't
abide by those either. Note that that won't be visible to some
quite large OSM communities who don't have access to Google docs
due to US government restrictions. I did try and include the
text in this message but that caused it to exceed the list
message limit; perhaps you could put a copy in the OSM wiki
instead where everyone can see it?<br>
<br>
You write "Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant
contributor profile: white, western and male" which I doubt that
many would disagree with. However, you go on to say "This power
dynamic leads to a communication style which includes
misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly,
competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which is
offensive to us".<br>
<br>
The first "mailing list" item in <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette</a>
is "Assume good faith". I would always argue that an attempt at
dialogue, which includes both sides listening, is always better
that an escalation of rhetoric. That doesn't mean there aren't
actual "unfriendly"or "hostile" messages within OSM channels, as
well as messages that were perceived as "unfriendly"or "hostile"
even when they weren't meant as such, but it does mean that
actually talking to the real person behind the messages is
surely the way forward**. Continuing with "... doxing,
competitive, intimidating ..." without citing evidence of each
of those doesn't add weight to the argument; it detracts from
it.<br>
<br>
That doesn't mean that people who want change have to somehow be
restricted to "asking nicely" for it (throughout history change
has been forced by people who refused to "ask nicely" - in the
last century the Pankhursts, Dietrich Bonhoffer et al, the ANC
and Stonewall all spring to mind). It's entirely normal for
both sides of a heated argument to view the other's as
"unreasonable", but hyperbole really doesn't help to shed light
rather than heat on things. We're all actually trying to achieve
the same goal here*** and in an election, the community can
decide whose vision of how to get there is best.<br>
<br>
Speaking of which: it's a bit late for this year; but have you
thought of standing for the board yourself?<br>
<br>
Best Regards<br>
<br>
Andy</p>
<p>(sending to the list this time after a previous attempt
inadvertantly went astray)</p>
<p> * full disclosure: I'm a member of OSM's Data Working Group,
so am far from without agency in OSM - I am also white, western
and male. With a DWG hat on I regularly see problems escalated
to us where the language used has got more than a little out of
control. <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-November/085658.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-November/085658.html</a>
is pretty typical of the approach I'll try and use in those
cases<br>
<br>
** In the world of OSM edits I'm a huge fan of changeset
discussion comments as the primary means of discussing an edit
that has been made. They're not a perfect mechanism, but the
fact that they're public and inherently person-to-person helps
to detoxify dialogue.<br>
<br>
*** I'm sure that both Michal and Frederik are striving for what
they genuinely believe is best for OSM. The fact that they
fundamentally disagree about how to achieve that doesn't mean
that one or the other is acting in bad faith.<br>
<br>
On 09/12/2020 19:06, Celine Jacquin wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALpiouGt2L24hc73tV3cmTUfQ9aL=NrMgXvg5cC61V8Nrh-sQQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello everybody<br>
I hope you are all well<br>
<br>
We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals,
have reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (<a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html</a>)
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the
problem we have faced for many years in the community, which
is one of the greatest obstacles to diversity at all levels
of OSM. Time to make a real change.</div>
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of
coexistence and improve diversity.
<div><br>
We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels
represented to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any
help is welcome): </div>
<div><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing">https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
On behalf of the signatories<br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Best regards<br>
<br>
Céline Jacquin<br>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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