<div dir="auto">I completely agree with Martin Constantino–Bodin's statement (translated for me from French by Google Translate.)<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">While it would certainly be unfortunate for someone to make a statement antagonizing all white men, that's not what's being done here and merely distracts from the topic at hand. If we are a group organized for the benefit of people worldwide, it would be unfortunate for the group's membership, leadership and policies to not reflect that, or act in ways that drive non-dominant demographics away.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">When I subscribed to this OSM mailing list, the web interface had a pretty complete list of bad behavior not to be tolerated. I think if we took that to heart, had even basic enforcement of it, and made efforts to explicitly include under-represented demographics in the organization, that would go a long way. I've been pleasantly surprised by the wide range of demographics represented in other OSM platforms, and the idea that this list would be a holdout for antisocial behaviors stereotypical of nerdy white men like myself dampens my enthusiasms. I think we can do better.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thank you to all who've made their feelings for inclusion and against offensive behavior known. I hope to see continued success and growth of OSM and its associated people in the new year.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 2:55 PM <<a href="mailto:talk-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send talk mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive<br>
Behavior in the OSM Community (Martin Constantino–Bodin)<br>
2. Re: Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive<br>
Behavior in the OSM Community (Florimond Berthoux)<br>
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<br>
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<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 21:39:05 +0100<br>
From: Martin Constantino–Bodin <<a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic<br>
Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:6fb47a49-c7ff-1b08-b531-ddf452e399a1@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">6fb47a49-c7ff-1b08-b531-ddf452e399a1@ens-lyon.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Bonsoir,<br>
<br>
J’ai probablement mal compris votre propos, du coup. J’ai lu votre <br>
message comme une plainte comme quoi cet appel serait un racisme « <br>
anti-blanc »… ce qui est bien entendu ridicule (le passage <br>
<a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire</a> est <br>
intéressant à lire sur le sujet).<br>
<br>
Cet appel n’est pas un propos haineux, bien au contraire : il demande à <br>
ce que les comportements hostiles sur cette liste soient reconnus, de <br>
telle sorte que l’on puisse travailler à les diminuer. Le fait est que <br>
les européens (et plus particulièrement un profil bien précis — blanc, <br>
masculin, anglophone, etc. dont je fais d’ailleurs moi-même pas mal <br>
parti) sont surreprésentés sur cette liste, et malheureusement viennent <br>
bien souvent avec des comportements « grande gueule » ou pire. <br>
Reconnaitre ce fait n’est pas haineux : c’est juste factuel.<br>
<br>
Je trouve assez inquiétant que plusieurs réponses à cet appel confondent <br>
une reconnaissance factuelle avec des propos haineux : rien que cela <br>
donne une idée de l’étendue du problème ☹<br>
<br>
Bonnes vacances pour ceux qui en ont ☺<br>
Martin Constantino–Bodin.<br>
<br>
> Bonjour,<br>
><br>
> J'ai cité le passage problématique.<br>
> J'ai trop souffert de phobie sociale dans ma vie pour accepter ce <br>
> genre de propos.<br>
><br>
> La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.<br>
><br>
> Bien à vous.<br>
><br>
> Le ven. 18 déc. 2020 à 12:15, Martin Constantino–Bodin <br>
> <<a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a>>> a écrit :<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Hello,<br>
>><br>
>> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a<br>
>> moving text ??) :<br>
>> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant<br>
>> contributor profile: white, Western and male. This power<br>
>> dynamic has led to a communication style which includes<br>
>> misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly,<br>
>> competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which<br>
>> is offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as<br>
>> observers and without the confidence to participate<br>
>> actively.»<br>
>><br>
>> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people<br>
>> defined by their color skin, origin or gender.<br>
>><br>
> Er… Please read this article:<br>
> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism</a><br>
><br>
> This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call<br>
> to recognise the issue and respond to it.<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
> Martin Constantino–Bodin.<br>
><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:52:46 +0100<br>
From: Florimond Berthoux <<a href="mailto:florimond.berthoux@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">florimond.berthoux@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Martin Constantino–Bodin <<a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a>><br>
Cc: osm <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic<br>
Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAELphJD-6QmhoN5E4vifFh_PYtYDtRBAkK0Rh2%2BcRKdq8b0g0w@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">CAELphJD-6QmhoN5E4vifFh_PYtYDtRBAkK0Rh2+cRKdq8b0g0w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Le mar. 22 déc. 2020 à 21:42, Martin Constantino–Bodin <<br>
<a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a>> a écrit :<br>
<br>
> Bonsoir,<br>
><br>
> J’ai probablement mal compris votre propos, du coup. J’ai lu votre message<br>
> comme une plainte comme quoi cet appel serait un racisme « anti-blanc »… ce<br>
> qui est bien entendu ridicule (le passage<br>
> <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire</a> est<br>
> intéressant à lire sur le sujet).<br>
><br>
"ridicule" ?<br>
French justice already condemned people for racism words against white<br>
people.<br>
Don't confuse systematic, or group racism and individual racism.<br>
Being into a minority group does not give you immunity against hate.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Cet appel n’est pas un propos haineux, bien au contraire : il demande à ce<br>
> que les comportements hostiles sur cette liste soient reconnus, de telle<br>
> sorte que l’on puisse travailler à les diminuer.<br>
><br>
I understand that well, and I'm not against that apriori.<br>
<br>
> Le fait est que les européens (et plus particulièrement un profil bien<br>
> précis — blanc, masculin, anglophone, etc. dont je fais d’ailleurs moi-même<br>
> pas mal parti) sont surreprésentés sur cette liste, et malheureusement<br>
> viennent bien souvent avec des comportements « grande gueule » ou pire.<br>
> Reconnaitre ce fait n’est pas haineux : c’est juste factuel.<br>
><br>
Racism is not about saying that "white" people are doing stuff together,<br>
it's saying that "white" people "has led to" bad behaviours (implication<br>
between a skin color and behaviour).<br>
<br>
> Je trouve assez inquiétant que plusieurs réponses à cet appel confondent<br>
> une reconnaissance factuelle avec des propos haineux : rien que cela donne<br>
> une idée de l’étendue du problème ☹<br>
><br>
And do you understand how I was devastated to read such violent words, and<br>
seeing 300 people agreeing with it ?<br>
That worries me way more.<br>
<br>
I have a rule of thumb : don't talk about others' skin color.<br>
<br>
Happy end of year, hope next year will be better for humanity.<br>
All the best.<br>
<br>
> Bonnes vacances pour ceux qui en ont ☺<br>
> Martin Constantino–Bodin.<br>
><br>
> Bonjour,<br>
><br>
> J'ai cité le passage problématique.<br>
> J'ai trop souffert de phobie sociale dans ma vie pour accepter ce genre de<br>
> propos.<br>
><br>
> La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.<br>
><br>
> Bien à vous.<br>
><br>
> Le ven. 18 déc. 2020 à 12:15, Martin Constantino–Bodin <<br>
> <a href="mailto:martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">martin.bodin@ens-lyon.org</a>> a écrit :<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> Hello,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a moving text ??)<br>
>>>> :<br>
>>>> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant contributor<br>
>>>> profile: white, Western and male. This power dynamic has led to a<br>
>>>> communication style which includes misogynistic, hostile, targeting,<br>
>>>> doxing, unfriendly, competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which<br>
>>>> is offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as observers and without<br>
>>>> the confidence to participate actively.»<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people defined by<br>
>>>> their color skin, origin or gender.<br>
>>>><br>
>>> Er… Please read this article:<br>
>> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism</a><br>
>><br>
>> This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call to<br>
>> recognise the issue and respond to it.<br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>> Martin Constantino–Bodin.<br>
>><br>
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<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Florimond Berthoux<br>
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