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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/03/2021 19:25, 80hnhtv4agou---
via talk wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1615825519.46347933@f503.i.mail.ru">
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<div><span style="color:#ed5c57;">DWG, is the police force of the
OSMF, they have no right to ban or sensor US for what WE
say on non OSM sites.</span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
But we all gave them a mission, protect the tradename and what it
stands for. If you want to express a different vision, opinion or
whatever of course you can, and there is few police on the internet
that will stop you. But that is not the case here, if you act under
the OSM name and pretend to represent the community or a community
platform, then it is no more then fair our DWG and OSMF can have a
say about that. And about referring to your platform from OSM
branded resources.<br>
And even more, if you incite violations against our basic rules and
code of conduct, from external sites, they have in my opinion the
mandate from the community to ban and stop you from doing that. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1615825519.46347933@f503.i.mail.ru">
<div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid #0857A6; margin:10px;
padding:0 0 0 10px;">Понедельник, 15 марта 2021, 8:53 -05:00
от Bert -Araali- Van Opstal
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"><bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com></a>:<br>
<div id="">
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<div id="style_16158164111875142971_BODY">
<div class="cl_828117">
<p><font face="Verdana">Hello all,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Sorry for the somewhat
delayed reply, I needed a break since this was
keeping me busy the whole night.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">I was not directed there
through the "OSM Community Index", I do think we
should list all channels there, including and
undiscriminating non open sources as there are
many. <br>
In case a community member feels offended or
notices other community members being offended,
who for whatever reason don't want or wish to
speak out, then I do support the general policy
of consultation, creating awareness and if that
doesn't bring any change in the behaviour,
reporting to the DWG and/or the board so they
can sanction them accordingly. </font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">In the case of the
OpenStreetMap World server, I was just
observing, not participating in any
conversation. As it carries the OpenStreetMap
brand name, see if it really acts and actively
values the OSM community. Most other non open
source channels do seem to achieve this, lets
call them by name, Telegram Groups, WhatsApp
groups do this, Facebook I don't know, since I
didn't observe it yet.<br>
As an observer, I personally was not targetted
by any of the comments, in the contrary, in some
messages my name and my personal opinions
respected and referenced.</font></p>
<p>Unfortunately, you have to join the group to be
able to read what is going on there. There is a
limited group of OSM members, active on this
DIscord Server, under the same or similar names as
on OSM, that seem to find this channel appropriate
to undermine our community guidelines, like the
Organised Editing Guidelines, actively soliciting
for organised edits to justify or promote
proposals etc... . An issue that already was
brought up in this forum with the necessary drama.
Issues, that can, in a decent dialogue, should be
able to be resolved, if necessary with
consultation of the DWG.</p>
<p>This doesn't however address the inappropriate
language used by some, which seems to gain support
from newcomers. And to Mateusz, I would like to
say, posting a message here to direct OSM
contributors to determine themselves if what is
happening there is non acceptable, is promoting
this channel, but feel free if you feel like you
want to connect your name to it and promote it...,<br>
<br>
Some of the messages I've seen there have been
removed, but after "the harm was already done".
Justifications and actions by users and the
moderators , came after my message on this forum
as it is bridged to DIscord, <br>
I leave out the most extreme examples as it helps
no one to be repeated, they contain "historic"
references and terms, aiming at certain countries
and communities and religions, which are not
acceptable, actively acted against by the UN and
the global community.<br>
But for those interested some of the less graving
messages are literally quoted here:<br>
"Shrubs is dumb, but otherwise I agree it's minor"<br>
"<font face="Verdana">That's why we need mob rule
to fix tagging."<br>
"</font><font face="Verdana">All micromapping
seems overly complicated to me, but there's some
Hungarian college kid that will do it."</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">I know, as the moderators
say, all not so extreme, but I, personally, got
more and more agitated, also by the comments
after my compliant by some of the moderators
that in their opinion it is not that bad....
This is where it starts, where is the end ?
When do you act. I also didn't contact the
moderators their in the first place since some
of them seem to practice and support the same
tone in their dialogues, I couldn't or didn't
determine if some of the abusers are the
moderators.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">To conclude this mail, I do
think as an OSM community we should react. The
channel is using the OSM name, actively uses and
links direct to OSM, engages and recruits OSM
members, so they should be treated as local
chapters acting on social media, with proper
attribution and acceptance of their code of
conduct and handling abuses by the DWG and our
board.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">They invited me to discuss
it publicly on their forum, I will, I will
ventilate my personal objections, and how this
behaviour and language makes me think twice
again, to put on an OSM T shirt or hat, I don't
like to be referenced as representing and
promoting this, even if it is just a small group
amongst an otherwise great open community.<br>
<br>
Thank you for taking your time to read this,<br>
<br>
Bert Araali</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix_mr_css_attr">On
15/03/2021 13:22, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>It seems to be referring to OpenStreetMap
World (there are multiple</div>
<div>OSM-related Discord servers).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I invite everyone to look there and judge on
their own whatever</div>
<div>description matches reality (invite link is
available on the</div>
<div>Wiki- <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Discord"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Discord</a>,
right now it is</div>
<div><a href="https://discord.gg/4smYkq3gzp"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://discord.gg/4smYkq3gzp</a>
- viewing content requires account</div>
<div>creation).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you join the server, you can see all the
discussion channels like</div>
<div>everyone else (except ones used solely for
handling of moderation).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anyone on this Discord server who sees
problems can send a message to a</div>
<div>moderator directly, ping a helper, or message
@ModMail. @ModMail is a</div>
<div>bot at the top of the user list. Use it to
talk directly, and</div>
<div>privately, to the entire mod team. (Modmail
is a common bot used on</div>
<div>thousands of Discord servers.)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Moderation team consists of nine members
from various countries</div>
<div>around the globe, specifically to cover all
timezones in-case of any</div>
<div>issues that need actioning. (I am one of the
people with ability to</div>
<div>remove users or content).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The server is, in general, a very well
moderated space. Rarely I catch</div>
<div>bitcoin spam before other moderators, so I
would gladly remove</div>
<div>abusive/racist/insulting/NSFW/spam/scam
content as against rules (maybe</div>
<div>together with their authors).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sadly, I failed to locate anything resembling
what you mentioned,</div>
<div>despite spending significant time on that.
Other moderators also tried</div>
<div>to locate content described in this email.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>One of the moderators contacted you through
Discord, so far content</div>
<div>that you described was not found. Can you
please describe it more</div>
<div>precisely at least to a moderator that is
trying to remove it?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For example I tried to locate:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> vote lobbying for and against proposals
because they are made by</div>
<div>> "another" countries community member,
it's nearing to hate speech...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There is #proposals channel where some
proposal authors are active</div>
<div>asking for feedback, announcing votes, and
asking for votes.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It was never argued there that you should
support or oppose any</div>
<div>proposals based on nationality.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is it referring to comments like</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> That particular opposition seems to be
mainly from non-native English</div>
<div>> speakers that don't seem to get that
scrub inherently is used for</div>
<div>> wild areas</div>
<div> </div>
<div>?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Because it is not hate speech or even close
to it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> Whole communities being insulted (words
I don't even dare to use)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is it referring to the following exchange?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> User1: Conspiracy theory: OpenStreetMap
is a German plot for world</div>
<div>> domination</div>
<div>> User2: This turned wrong quickly</div>
<div>> User1: I never said it was a Nazi plot</div>
<div>> User2: I know it was just a joke
:slight_smile:</div>
<div>> User3: Our secret plot is to fill the
world with burocracy till</div>
<div>> everything is accounted for</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Or a comment that jokingly referred to
multiple no votes on shrubbery</div>
<div>proposal as "German assault"?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Or something else? Because I would consider
it a substandard joke at</div>
<div>worst, I would not consider it as something
objectionable.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have failed to find any insults so grave
that even quoting them is</div>
<div>unacceptable.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Note:</div>
<div>- User3 is from Germany.</div>
<div>- that is the most aggressive content in
thousands of comments posted</div>
<div> there</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> Racist</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(from the title)</div>
<div>I tried really hard to find anything that
matched, sadly I failed. One</div>
<div>of the moderators contacted you, can you
forward to them the racist</div>
<div>comments/content, so that it can be
eliminated?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>There have historically been cases of bans of
users for racist or rude</div>
<div>content, but they were just spam by recently
joined accounts - that got</div>
<div>deleted immediately.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>> insulting and abusive comments (...)
disgusting</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also, please forward to moderator who
contacted you content that you</div>
<div>encountered and describe this way. That would
make possible to locate</div>
<div>anything that would match your description.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I planned to wait longer to explain what
exactly is being reported but</div>
<div>as the situation is escalating</div>
<div>( <a
href="https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/pull/424"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/pull/424</a>
), this post</div>
<div>was made sooner than planned.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Please, if you encounter any racist,
disgusting, inappropriate,</div>
<div>harmful, or abusive (there or elsewhere) -
please report it to</div>
<div>moderators using whatever tool is available
on a given platform. In</div>
<div>general it is a good idea to quote, link or
otherwise specifically</div>
<div>identify rule-breaking content.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>On this Discord server send a message to
@ModMail account.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This message was consulted with the
moderation team on OpenStreetMap</div>
<div>World Discord server.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div class="mail-quote-collapse">
<div><span>Mar 14, 2021, 21:29 by <a
href="//e.mail.ru/compose/?mailto=mailto%3abert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated_mr_css_attr" moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>:</span></div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8;padding-left: 10px;margin-left:
5px;" class="tutanota_quote_mr_css_attr">
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana"
class="font_mr_css_attr">Dear all,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana"
class="font_mr_css_attr">This is a call
to our whole community, </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Verdana"
class="font_mr_css_attr">I have become
only recently active on OSM's community
channels. I am very welcomed, respected
on the various talk pages, and I
appreciate that.<br>
The past month I have been following
different alternative channels, Telegram
groups, WhatsApp groups, and... Discord.</span><br>
All of them using the OSM name, which for
me stands as a quality mark, not just as a
trade mark. Being channels that respect,
values and understands different cultures,
different opinions, promotes decent and
democratic principles, respect the
"etiquette" required of calling yourself
an OSM contributor, a member of this
community.</p>
<div>However, what I see on Discord, all
under the OSM trade name, sorry for the
word... is disgusting.</div>
<div>Whole communities being insulted (words
I don't even dare to use), remarks of
non-English communities making "dumb"
remarks, vote lobbying for and against
proposals because they are made by
"another" countries community member, it's
nearing to hate speech... really
disgusting.</div>
<div>The ones who are on these channels know
who and what I am talking about, I kindly
ask you, stop this please. This is not
welcome, highly inappropriate and not how
you communicate with your fellow human
beings, your fellow OSM contributor. Stop,
go and look in the mirror, and ask
yourself what am I doing, is this how I
want to be known in a worldwide peaceful
community ?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I didn't file a compliant at the DWG, I
didn't call this subject to be handled in
the OSMF board (yet), I first call in this
channel, and everyone who experiences the
same, feels the same discussed, speak out,
comment on this channel, because I don't
want to be associated with a channel that
uses the OSM name where by some, not all
not the majority, but some, disguise and
dis-value what we stand for.</div>
<div>And please, don't call names in your
comments, it's not limited to people from
one country particular, one community.
Just express your concerns, and when this
behaviour doesn't change, we as a
community can and will take action,
identify the malicious minds and
practices, and remand or ban them. Let
your comment be their first warning.</div>
<p>Kind regards,</p>
<p>Bert Araali</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre_mr_css_attr">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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