<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Apols to Allen, the message was too large with the old stuff on the end and I forwarded it to the talk ca list by mistake.</div></div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">john whelan</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 14:04<br>Subject: Re: FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns<br>To: George Boulos (DTP) <<a href="mailto:George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au" target="_blank">George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au</a>><br>Cc: <a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a> <<a href="mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>, Robert C Potter (DTP) <<a href="mailto:Robert.Potter@roads.vic.gov.au" target="_blank">Robert.Potter@roads.vic.gov.au</a>>, Priya Maniam Chinakarapaya (DTP) <<a href="mailto:priya.maniamchinakarapaya@roads.vic.gov.au" target="_blank">priya.maniamchinakarapaya@roads.vic.gov.au</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I was probably what you might call a glue person in the project. I was interested in importing bus stops with the phone number to call for the next bus in Ottawa to the map.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">The new minister in charge of Treasury Board wanted to shake hands with Open Data people. So a group of a dozen of us got selected to attend. The most important people there were not the minister but his staff and when I mentioned we couldn't use their open data because of the license they asked me to repeat the statement and they listened. Later they went on to talk to other open data consumers. It took five years for their license to be changed to something that looked like we could use. In Canada we have a long history of importing CANVEC data into the map. The number of mappers per square kilometer is much lower than say Germany.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">In Ottawa we were very lucky in having a University lecturer who was into Open Data and she was instrumental in many ways in forwarding the agenda.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I'd retired from Statistics Canada but knew their corporate culture quite well. It was about the time when the new license was approved, that they decided to create a project about buildings. The pilot would take place in Ottawa seeing it was local and one of their staff had seen OpenStreetMap and thought this was a great way that they could crowd source adding more information about buildings. They'd seen a building added with iD and thought it would be simple. This they would combine with other data and sell to clients.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">I drank my first cup of coffee of many with the project manager and suggested it might be an idea to have a meeting to see if data could be imported. The new Federal government's Open Data licence looked as if it matched OSM's licensing requirements so it looked sort of doable and Metrolink had recently been adding addresses. <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Metrolinx is a transit organisation in Ontario and by adding addresses into OSM they hoped newly occupied addresses could make use of route planning applications.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">We had a meeting, City of Ottawa, myself, someone from <span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Metrolinx who had imported addresses from a Stats Canada source into OSM, they were there on the phone, we had someone from HOT in Switzerland describing how HOT used crowdsourcing to add data to OSM, the University lecturer who brought up bilingualism, I had a Nexus running OSMAND in French displaying the Ottawa street names in French and that probably sealed the deal as bilingualism is mandatory and expensive in the Canadian civil service. The lecturer identified a dataset that the city of Ottawa owned and that became the data set that would be later imported. The Stats Canada director who was at the meeting said we'd turned the project into something quite different.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The City of Ottawa would need to change their license to align with the new Federal one, that had to go to council but was eventually approved after a delay of about a year.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The civil service and OSM are very, very different cultures. The open data would be imported by local mappers but only if they decided they would go ahead. We had two major targets in OSM, the locals and the heavies. Stats had money so I suggested that the project manager attend SotM in europe. Unfortunately at the last minute he was unable to attend but fortunately his boss was and he met with a number of what I'd call the heavies of OSM. </span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The project manager and his assistant were dispatched to meet with the local mappers and buy them coffee and flesh out the details. We had a group of enthusiastic mappers around, James was one of them. They had a half dozen physical meetings over coffee and agreed the import could go ahead and that the local OSM mappers would do it.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">OSM has had a lot of substandard data imported into it over time so there are now procedures to follow before importing the data. Many mappers in OSM, especially in Europe, don't exactly love data being imported and their views are made known in the import process. Getting approval to import is not easy and dealing with the people involved was not easy either. You can't just import, you have to have a process to deal with existing data in the map. I'd have someone else do it.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The license was challenged. It would need to go to the Legal Working Group for a benediction. Their backlog was about three years. However Mapbox and others had heard about the project at the SotM and were interested. I understand one of their employees was a member of the LWG. Somehow we got the license approved for an import. This is why the advice is to try to use the same license.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">When the first buildings were imported one mapper who lived in the area challenged the import saying he hadn't been consulted. Eventually the talk ca mailing group accepted consultation with local mappers had taken place over a number of physical meetings and that due process had been followed.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">We had further feedback from Montreal mappers that some details of the imported buildings were to their mind not as they would prefer them to be but the rule in OSM is what local mappers say goes and they were happy.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Does that give you a flavour of the problems? The technical side is one thing, the people side is something else.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Ottawa's approach was to release its open data under a license that could be imported into OSM and I suggest that might well be the way forward.</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Cheerio John</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 at 22:19, George Boulos (DTP) <<a href="mailto:George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au" target="_blank">George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">Thank you John for your correspondence.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">We are going through a similar journey.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">Are you able to share how the OSM community accepted that their data could be used and then offered for public use under a different licence arrangement
without the need to “Share-alike”?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">Also are you able to provide clarity on what your role is in negotiating this understanding?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">Thank you again in advance for your contribution and engagement.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif">George<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">George Boulos<br>
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">DTP Data Governance Manager <br>
Strategy - Mobility and Insights - Policy, Precincts and Innovation<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">Department of Transport & Planning<br>
Level 4, 1 Spring Street<br>
Melbourne, VIC 3000<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">M: +61 (0)428 470 301 <br>
</span><a href="mailto:George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(5,99,193)">George.Boulos@roads.vic.gov.au</span></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)"><br>
</span><a href="https://transport.vic.gov.au/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">transport.vic.gov.au</span></a><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Garamond,serif;color:rgb(13,13,13)">
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