[OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision, collaborators?

Lulu-Ann at gmx.de Lulu-Ann at gmx.de
Wed Dec 16 10:21:28 GMT 2009

Hallo Jonathan-David!

My comments in line:

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:50:01 +0100
> Von: Jonathan-David SCHRODER <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com>
> An: Emilie Laffray <emilie.laffray at gmail.com>
> CC: John Smith <deltafoxtrot256 at gmail.com>, OpenStreetMap Developers <dev at openstreetmap.org>, richard <richard at 2009.atterer.net>, Lulu-Ann <Lulu-Ann at gmx.de>, info <info at gravitystorm.co.uk>
> Betreff: Re: [OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision, 	collaborators?

> Hello,
> thanks again for all the links and pointers (openstreetmap wiki pages,
> skyhook, openbmap)...
> Hello again !
> I'm cc-ing for info : Richard Atterer (one of your articles is linked
> below), Lulu-Ann (your project and name mentionned), Andy Allan (1
> question
> for you at the email's bottom).
> Note : when I write we/us/our... below, I mean my team and that team is so
> open to collaboration (thanks again for your past replies !).
> I'd have two more questions regarding Wiki project page creation and Some
> server setup.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Wiki project pages : request for comments  |
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm looking for collaboration on read/writing of indoor objects on maps in
> an _open way_.
> I want to create a page for indoor-scale and buildings mapping.
> >From what I see in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page > Portals
> square ;
> we could have :
> 1) a project page like
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_for_indoor_and_outdoor_human_sized_objects

Why do you link to a page that does not exist? Why don't you just create it?

> and for a nickname OSM FIAOHUSO => reverse&remix => HouseFeetFit (HFF)
> 2) some Proposed features/attributes page linked from 1)'s wiki page.
> ...
> @Lulu-Ann and of course we'd put a link to the
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_for_the_blind page and vice-versa !

I would link back, but the page does not exist.

> What are your opinions these ideas.

I think without the level proposal no indoor information can be stored in OSM.
See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Level

> Just for the sake of trying to prove that I'm would not be overlapping too
> much on other projects.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wiki project pages : motivations for creating a new project   |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I've looked into http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Other_maps and
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services
> I did not find something related to indoor stuff there.

Yes, because indoor data can not be stored without knowing about levels. As this is hard to display in maps, nobody tried to yet, I guess.
I have an idea that if an area contains level tags, there should be an interactive button in the map that offers to choose the level you want to see and shows it then. Really takes time to realize.

> The only close thing to it would be openstreetbrowser.org...
> ...with 2 additional requirements to implement :
> 1) more precision,
> 2) use of "map features" for indoor & buildings
> and 3) addition of wifi spots positions - not rendered on map but
> fetchable

Wifi spots can already be rendered.

Wifi spots of the FON project are not welcome in the map, because they are often not available, which might apply for other wifi hotspots, too.

> over some API (eg. the v0.6 one implemented in Rails)
> More than a full enhanced-"openstreetbrowser.org"-like project, I'd like
> to
> let anyone download software for free and build his/her own
> "openstreet-indoor-maps" appliance for his/her own building/place (eg.
> supermarket, hospital...) in order to restrict access to the place's
> indoor
> features only to people having some login&password. (this is not
> closed-mindedness, for example in hospitals, only certain POIs should be
> viewable by certain people, such as some patients locations & health
> details
> viewable only by personnel in charge of them).

OSM data is public. If you need to have private data, it can not go into OSM database, so you need to set up you personal overlay database.

> Outside of openstreetmap's site, we have found several people mentioning
> the
> topic of indoor geopositioning :
> - Richard Atterer here : http://atterer.net/leadme ;
> - this post : http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=49850 , but
> the person is taking a different orientation from ours
> - B2. Interactive Maps / University of Salford :
> http://www.ja.net/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations-la.html
> - there's ~indoor building attributes proposals here, but that seems more
> for detailing a building from the outside:
>       -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Building_attributes
>       - and
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Building_attributes
> - this discussion thread of course !
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Servers setup for compositing : help needed   |
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> @Andy Allan and others.
> I want to do something similar to what opencyclemap does ; which is :
> (functional requirements)
> 1) have bits/specific areas (eg. 5th district of Paris, France) from the
> osm
> map
> 2) have additional self-hosted .osm data composited* on 1) map.
> 3) have "some appliance" (2) or other) be able to send :
>        a) tiles over HTTP API (for mobiles, web slippy&potlach maps...)
>        b) POIs, nodes, waypoints along with their tagging over HTTP API
> (for
> mobiles & web browser object filtering, routing and graphical display or
> background calculations - wifi triangulation).
> *=>we need fully-baked compositing so that mobiles don't to download to do
> layers overlaying themselves

This is not about layers, it is about levels.
> (in terms of implementation requirements)
> ... what setup would we have ? What about something like this (never
> tested,
> please comment) :
> 1) "untouched" osm.org server (if buildings or "macro" outdoor objects are
> not drawn, we draw their bounds onto that server though)
> 2) some dedicated computer/cloud instance with an openstreetmap server
> (postgres, PostGIS, mapnik...)
> => with
>   I. initting:
>           a) 2) downloads a recent .bz2 file and note down its
> version/changeset number (indirectly coming from 1)'s database)
>           b) 2) runs an osmosis --bbox'ed import into database
>           c) 2) runs mapnik to make the tiles with a greater precision (z)
> than the usual osm.org settings
>   II. updating from 1) (happens everytime new changesets > last downloaded
> version is out)
>            a) 2) downloads latest changesets's .bz2 file
>            b) 2) runs an osmosis --apply-change to apply bz2 file's
> changeset to database
>            ?C?) how do we ensure that our indoor data remains unaffected
> by
> the changeset ?
>            d) 2) runs mapnik to remake tiles
> 3) server side:
>     - rails web stack for web maps & HTTP apis is installed on 2) or on
> another server with ports & login access to 2)'s database & tiles
>      - the web stack's API is already precise enough (thanks Lars Francke
> for your searching again !) for indoor-precision API HTTP bbox-delimited
> queries to work.
> client side :
>      - on mobile phones : use of Nutiteq's j2me maps library, or other
> android piece of open source software for example (osmdroid, opensatnav).
> Some code around those apps allows for more zoom levels & for
> threaded-background gathering of wifi beacons positions (stored in 2)'s
> database) so as to make triangulation calculation and to allow end-user
> searching of objects to display on top of map (what do you propose for
> this
> overlaying ? Can the Web API reply to the queries with a KML group of
> features ?... we want to have features's URLs known and usable on the
> mobile
> end).
> Thank you sooo much for your replies in advance !!
> I am eager to collaborate openly with anyone on that indoor/human-size
> objects on openstreetmap project which is shaping up slowly and take on to
> implementation in the beginning of January 2010.
> Jonathan-David Schröder

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