[OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning

Lulu-Ann at gmx.de Lulu-Ann at gmx.de
Mon Nov 30 16:22:01 GMT 2009


Hi,

this indoor topic is very interesting for navigation for blind people,
e.g. in subway stations.

Please let us know your wiki page and link to [[OSM for the blind]].

Thanks
Lulu-Ann

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:21:15 +0000
> Von: dev-request at openstreetmap.org
> An: dev at openstreetmap.org
> Betreff: dev Digest, Vol 56, Issue 23

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision,
>       collaborators? (Jonathan-David SCHRODER)
>    2. Re: indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision,
>       collaborators? (?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason)
>    3. Re: indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision,
>       collaborators? (Lars Francke)
>    4. Re: indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap precision,
>       collaborators? (Jonathan-David SCHRODER)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:35:22 +0100
> From: Jonathan-David SCHRODER <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com>
> Subject: [OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap
> 	precision,	collaborators?
> To: dev <dev at openstreetmap.org>, "N.Linge" <N.Linge at salford.ac.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a9bc87420911291835q6a398392q4ccfad5657a7eff8 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hello,
> I am working on a student project (team of 6 people) whose goal is to
> build
> a solution allowing mobile devices to display indoor data along with wifi
> geopositioning. (I am willing citing this because contrary to
> http://www.micello.com or http://www.aws.cit.ie/mapume/ who we just found
> about, we want to have something fully open source/free software).
> As part of this project, we have decided to use the openstreetmap server
> software technology.
> 
> Someone at University of Calford (UK) did the same as us and managed to
> draw
> into a self-hosted openstreetmap server, the inside of some campus's
> bookstore.
> See here :
> http://www.ja.net/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations-la.html<=
> B2. Interactive Maps =
> http://www.ja.net/documents/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations/B2-interactive-maps-2.pdf
> 
> "@page 14 (or 270 in page footers)
> "What worked well was the fact that whilst OpenStreetMap is intended for
> outdoor maps it
> can be made to work equally well for indoor maps. The interactive server
> can
> be configured to
> provide further zoom levels to display the resolution required for indoor
> maps. The provision of
> interactive elements can then be achieved by editing the PostGIS database
> to
> include additional
> objects, which can then be rendered by the mapnik renderer. Each
> additional
> interactive object
> will require its own unique style to be predefined to ensure that they
> appear correctly on the
> portable device."
> 
> I have put Nigel Linge who I believe is the author of this PDF and
> paragraph
> as a recipient of this e-mail too.
> 
> Could someone tell precisely what config changes need to be done for
> indoor
> precision & objects, starting from a regular openstreetmap server setup
> such
> as that described on
> http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server ?
> 
> I basically would like to be able to draw every possible object contained
> in
> a building/home/construction.
> I have started creating a tags draft for indoor which is very limited at :
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Proposed_Features_-_Indoor
> 
> By the way, who would like to collaborate with my team on our indoor self-
> and objects geopositionning project relying on openstreetmap and
> java-based
> mobile applications ?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help,
> 
> Jonathan-David Schr?der
> Student in 5th in embedded systems at ECE Paris, France
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/attachments/20091130/cc81d7b4/attachment-0001.htm 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 03:10:59 +0000
> From: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap
> 	precision,	collaborators?
> To: Jonathan-David SCHRODER <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com>
> Cc: dev <dev at openstreetmap.org>, "N.Linge" <N.Linge at salford.ac.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<51dd1af80911291910h48a44900i704406b2726e0d28 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 02:35, Jonathan-David SCHRODER
> <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I am working on a student project (team of 6 people) whose goal is to
> build
> > a solution allowing mobile devices to display indoor data along with
> wifi
> > geopositioning. (I am willing citing this because contrary to
> > http://www.micello.com or http://www.aws.cit.ie/mapume/ who we just
> found
> > about, we want to have something fully open source/free software).
> > As part of this project, we have decided to use the openstreetmap server
> > software technology.
> >
> > Someone at University of Calford (UK) did the same as us and managed to
> draw
> > into a self-hosted openstreetmap server, the inside of some campus's
> > bookstore.
> > See here :
> >
> http://www.ja.net/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations-la.html
> > <=?B2. Interactive Maps =
> >
> http://www.ja.net/documents/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations/B2-interactive-maps-2.pdf
> >
> > "@page 14 (or 270 in page footers)
> > "What worked well was the fact that whilst OpenStreetMap is intended for
> > outdoor maps it
> > can be made to work equally well for indoor maps. The interactive server
> can
> > be configured to
> > provide further zoom levels to display the resolution required for
> indoor
> > maps. The provision of
> > interactive elements can then be achieved by editing the PostGIS
> database to
> > include additional
> > objects, which can then be rendered by the mapnik renderer. Each
> additional
> > interactive object
> > will require its own unique style to be predefined to ensure that they
> > appear correctly on the
> > portable device."
> >
> > I have put Nigel Linge who I believe is the author of this PDF and
> paragraph
> > as a recipient of this e-mail too.
> >
> > Could someone tell precisely what config changes need to be done for
> indoor
> > precision & objects, starting from a regular openstreetmap server setup
> such
> > as that described on
> > http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server ?
> >
> > I basically would like to be able to draw every possible object
> contained in
> > a building/home/construction.
> > I have started creating a tags draft for indoor which is very limited at
> :
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Proposed_Features_-_Indoor
> >
> > By the way, who would like to collaborate with my team on our indoor
> self-
> > and objects geopositionning project relying on openstreetmap and
> java-based
> > mobile applications ?
> 
> That's a very interesting project, but I don't see why you need to set
> up your own OpenStreetMap-like infrastructure for it. Why not just
> save this data to the main OpenStreetMap API which will take care of
> storing it for you and then retrieve daily dumps for your area and
> render the map from those? Then you don't have worry about hosting
> your own API, others can easily access your data from OSM and you only
> have to worry about rendering.
> 
> To render you need small PostGIS database (for mapnik) you refresh
> daily along with a custom stylesheet to actually render the data
> you're putting in, along with small configuration changes to
> mapnik/OpenLayers to render more zoom levels than normally. That can
> all be done on something as unpowerful as someones laptop which runs
> generate_tiles.py overnight and then uploads tiles / HTML to some web
> hosting space.
> 
> The only thing I see potentially getting in your way is that the OSM
> database doesn't store enough significant digits of lat/lon
> coordinates to make indoor mapping viable, but perhaps it does. I
> couldn't find documentation on how many digits it stores and how that
> translates approximately into real-world meters/centimeters. Perhaps
> someone else can chime in with that information?
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:34:03 +0100
> From: Lars Francke <lars.francke at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap
> 	precision,	collaborators?
> To: ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason <avarab at gmail.com>
> Cc: dev <dev at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<fda1bfdd0911291934g2e02dd34kb40a9ca1793f5a2b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> > The only thing I see potentially getting in your way is that the OSM
> > database doesn't store enough significant digits of lat/lon
> > coordinates to make indoor mapping viable, but perhaps it does. I
> > couldn't find documentation on how many digits it stores and how that
> > translates approximately into real-world meters/centimeters. Perhaps
> > someone else can chime in with that information?
> 
> The code is here:
> http://svn.openstreetmap.org/sites/rails_port/lib/geo_record.rb
> Seven fractional digits are saved. That should be somewhere in the 1-3
> centimeter range depending on where you are and I believe that'll be
> enough for indoor mapping :)
> 
> Lars
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:21:06 +0100
> From: Jonathan-David SCHRODER <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-dev] indoor wifi geopositionning - openstreetmap
> 	precision,	collaborators?
> To: dev <dev at openstreetmap.org>, "N.Linge" <N.Linge at salford.ac.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a9bc87420911292021nedfde8ax5baefcd4fd875ac3 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:10 AM, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason
> <avarab at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 02:35, Jonathan-David SCHRODER
> > <jonathan.schroder at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > I am working on a student project (team of 6 people) whose goal is to
> > build
> > > a solution allowing mobile devices to display indoor data along with
> wifi
> > > geopositioning. (I am willing citing this because contrary to
> > > http://www.micello.com or http://www.aws.cit.ie/mapume/ who we just
> > found
> > > about, we want to have something fully open source/free software).
> > > As part of this project, we have decided to use the openstreetmap
> server
> > > software technology.
> > >
> > > Someone at University of Calford (UK) did the same as us and managed
> to
> > draw
> > > into a self-hosted openstreetmap server, the inside of some campus's
> > > bookstore.
> > > See here :
> > >
> >
> http://www.ja.net/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations-la.html
> > > <= B2. Interactive Maps =
> > >
> >
> http://www.ja.net/documents/development/network-access/location-awareness/investigations/B2-interactive-maps-2.pdf
> > >
> > > "@page 14 (or 270 in page footers)
> > > "What worked well was the fact that whilst OpenStreetMap is intended
> for
> > > outdoor maps it
> > > can be made to work equally well for indoor maps. The interactive
> server
> > can
> > > be configured to
> > > provide further zoom levels to display the resolution required for
> indoor
> > > maps. The provision of
> > > interactive elements can then be achieved by editing the PostGIS
> database
> > to
> > > include additional
> > > objects, which can then be rendered by the mapnik renderer. Each
> > additional
> > > interactive object
> > > will require its own unique style to be predefined to ensure that they
> > > appear correctly on the
> > > portable device."
> > >
> > > I have put Nigel Linge who I believe is the author of this PDF and
> > paragraph
> > > as a recipient of this e-mail too.
> > >
> > > Could someone tell precisely what config changes need to be done for
> > indoor
> > > precision & objects, starting from a regular openstreetmap server
> setup
> > such
> > > as that described on
> > > http://weait.com/content/build-your-own-openstreetmap-server ?
> > >
> > > I basically would like to be able to draw every possible object
> contained
> > in
> > > a building/home/construction.
> > > I have started creating a tags draft for indoor which is very limited
> at
> > :
> > >
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Proposed_Features_-_Indoor
> > >
> > > By the way, who would like to collaborate with my team on our indoor
> > self-
> > > and objects geopositionning project relying on openstreetmap and
> > java-based
> > > mobile applications ?
> >
> > That's a very interesting project, but I don't see why you need to set
> > up your own OpenStreetMap-like infrastructure for it. Why not just
> > save this data to the main OpenStreetMap API which will take care of
> > storing it for you and then retrieve daily dumps for your area and
> > render the map from those? Then you don't have worry about hosting
> > your own API, others can easily access your data from OSM and you only
> > have to worry about rendering.
> >
> Hello,
> I do accept to have some buildings' outer bounds to be stored on the
> database which is _public_, but I and people who'll use our project will -
> we guess - mostly not want to have their building's levels contents
> (chair,table,fridge,room 322,trashcan...) stored inside that database, but
> rather another private database.
> I already use JOSM to send the buildings outer bounds on the public server
> and this process/the tool is ok enough, I don't need to speak about APIs
> for
> public stuff for now.
> Though for private stuff = the buildings contents, I'll very likely use
> the
> APIs and private to me means :
> - private dedicated server deployed by my team
> or
> - private openstreetmap space on some service provider's cloud
> 
> >
> > To render you need small PostGIS database (for mapnik) you refresh
> > daily along with a custom stylesheet to actually render the data
> > you're putting in, along with small configuration changes to
> > mapnik/OpenLayers to render more zoom levels than normally. That can
> > all be done on something as unpowerful as someones laptop which runs
> > generate_tiles.py overnight and then uploads tiles / HTML to some web
> > hosting space.
> 
> ok thank you, more than generate_tile.py, likely the server side API
> scripts
> should be checked so that they don't round/skip a request if its lat&long
> are too precise.
> 
> so if I understand well, in this case in the global setup I'd have :
> openstreetmap.org for storing building's outdoor bounds and also sending
> frequent updates of my buildings' surrounding areas' data
> myownstreetmapserver.org for storing the latter surrounding areas' data +
> merging that with my building's indoor data & rendering the whole into
> outdoor & fine-grained indoor tiles with custom icons (stylesheet) ?
> 
> >
> > The only thing I see potentially getting in your way is that the OSM
> > database doesn't store enough significant digits of lat/lon
> > coordinates to make indoor mapping viable, but perhaps it does. I
> > couldn't find documentation on how many digits it stores and how that
> > translates approximately into real-world meters/centimeters. Perhaps
> > someone else can chime in with that information?
> >
> Ok... well, at least for now, I can tell that I can draw things <1m in
> JOSM
> and see those items represented on openstreetmap.org in the same precision
> in the Edit tab (potlactch?) ; in the View tab, I can't tell because I
> can't
> zoom more.
> 
> For our mobile use, for now, we don't plan to use openlayers
> (browser-hosted)  for speed considerations, but some java-based
> apps/libraries. While it seems obvious that we'll stay with openlayers
> (viewing) and JOSM/* (editing) for desktop computers.
> 
> Thank you very much for having replied.
> Jonathan
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