[diversity-talk] The recent unpleasantness

[Melelani Sax-Barnett]

To your first question, if anyone else (and I do mean anyone) had responded
as harshly and also had a history of that kind of behavior, yes, I'd
certainly hope that they'd be banned as well. But that's of course up to a
moderator/group of moderators to think carefully about it and make a fair
decision, which I'd argue is what happened here.

And to your other point, yes, absolutely we need to reach out more. But I
think both are equally important -- it doesn't matter how hard you work
convincing people to join your community if you plop them right down in the
middle of a toxic environment. They're going to try to remain anonymous in
their participation if they stay at all.

Just my thoughts.
Mele

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Sarah Hoffmann <lonvia at denofr.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> sorry for warming up this discussion just when everybody has cooled down,
> but something about this whole incident keeps bothering me.
>
> Imagine that the situation at hand would have been slightly different,
> imagine it would have played out like this (purely hypothetical of course):
>
>  Serge, in a thread about childcare, makes a thoughtless, humorously meant
>  side-mark that is quite a bit derogative to women. Alyssa, having had a
>  bad day (don't we all have those), replies with an angry mail, stating
>  that this was the worst insult she has ever heard and that he should be
>  ashamed of himself. Serge immediately replies that she has always been an
>  asshole and that he doesn't talk to people like her.
>
> Would the moderation have banned Alyssa in this situation? Would the others
> on this list have been so ready to defend Serge's reaction or would it have
> been more likely that it still would have been Serge who would have ended
> up being reprimanded for using swear words?
>
> Consider this more of a rhetorical question but it highlights what has been
> bothering me about the entire diversity debate since very much the
> beginning.
> There seems to be too little discussion on how to correct the skewed
> proportions
> in the distribution of mappers. Instead everything seems focused on the
> protection of minorities, rather euphemistically called creating a safe
> place,
> and finger pointing. I find that dangerous on many levels.
>
> First of all, invoking protection is not the same as showing respect and
> interest in minority groups. Protectors always have a certain self-
> interest, may that be a commercial interest or just the goal of feeling
> better about themselves by seemingly helping the helpless. And that carries
> the danger that protection becomes misguided.  In the case of gender
> diversity this has gone so far that the whole discussion is now focussed
> on the argument that woman need protection. Basically, this is just
> playing on
> the same old stereotype that woman are weak and cannot defend themselves.
> I find that annoying and derogative. To me, it's nothing but chauvinism
> in disguise. This thread is a classic example. The general consensus
> seems to be that Alyssa can be forgiven because she needs her safe space
> while Serge can handle a decent beating and doesn't need respect or
> forgiveness.
>
> The second problem is that protectionism wants to justify itself. To that
> end
> here on this list (following the lead of the geek feminism discussions)
> it has been repeatedly encouraged to find and call out offense in all
> human social interactions. While it indeed can help to rise awareness
> to certain misguided social conventions, it has it's dangers because it
> tends
> to make huge issues out of small blunders. It's exactly what has happened
> in the last two days on this list. Personally, I'm more for "don't
> take offense where none is meant". But that might be cultural. If you
> want offense to be pointed out, then you absolutely must first have
> mechanisms in place to deal with it objectively. This list has obviously
> no such mechanism as it has simply banned somebody for pointing
> out such an offense. (As, at the same time, you seem perfectly happy with
> people calling each other names, it makes no sense to pretend that Serge
> was banned for the tone of his message.)
>
> Third, there is an inherent prejudgement of the majority groups here,
> in particular in the harassment debates. Voicing disagreement is frequently
> taken to be synonymous to trolling or harassment. If you are male, your
> words
> are taken to be sexist. If you are straight, you must be homophobic etc.
> I'm exaggerating a bit but that is what the current atmosphere feels like
> to me. The result is that members of the majority groups prefer to
> shut up and gather in smaller groups among themselves where they are
> free of such prejudgement. It's exactly the opposite of what a diversity
> debate should result in.
>
> A final remark: there is a good reason I haven't joined this list before
> today. I had the intent to do so about two weeks after it was founded.
> Looking through the archives before finishing the subscription process,
> the first message I came upon was a mail from Alyssa rallying up support
> against another NYC mapper whom she had some personal disagreement with.
> I didn't know who it was at the time but that wasn't important anyway.
> To me the message had every aspect of a mobbing campaign. It did not
> fill me with confidence that this list is a safe place to speak your
> mind freely. So I walked away.
>
> My opinion has not improved since then, so it's unlikely that I will stay.
> If you are truly interested in improving diversity, I strongly suggest that
> you go out meet the people you want to draw in, understand what their
> interests are and what would attract them to participate in OpenStreetMap.
> Then go to the people who are already part of OSM, talk to them and
> understand what makes them tick. Listen, then listen, and finally
> listen some more. Only then will it be possible to come up
> with a strategy on how you can bring them together. Please stop focussing
> solely on which people to shut out.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Sarah
>
>
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