[HOT] Request for information about common set of tags for HOT (Was: OSM Nepal Reponse - Links to various infos)

Springfield Harrison stellargps at gmail.com
Tue May 19 22:46:11 UTC 2015


Hi Stefan,

         That would be fine, will take a 
look.  The GIS philosophy here seems to differ 
from that which I'm used to.  Maybe I need to move up the learning curve.

                 Cheers . . . .   Spring Harrison


At 19-05-2015 15:21 Tuesday, Stefan Keller wrote:
>Hi Spring, hi HOT team members
>
>This is not a critique of OSM tagging in general but about the
>inexistence of documentation and the lack of
>coordination/communication regarding tags used specifically in HOT.
>With this thread I want to address HOT team members and experienced
>HOT contributors.
>I hope that this time they take the time to respond and act.
>
>If you, Spring, want to help OSM I have a document for you from my
>Osmaxx project which you could review from a GIS perspective (it will
>be publicly available soon on github. In the meantime I'll send it to
>you directly).
>
>Cheers, Stefan
>
>
>2015-05-19 21:38 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison <stellargps at gmail.com>:
> > Hello Stefan & Blake,
> >
> > I concur with the comments about the "tag soup" mess. As I have mentioned
> > before, I am new to this OSM environment but 
> have some years experience with
> > GPS and GIS mapping and database design.
> >
> > To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design
> > looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017
> > OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I
> > extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388
> > records of those.
> >
> > It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard
> > to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of
> > overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a 
> confusing intermingling of features and
> > attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be
> > impossible to definitively extract a 
> meaningful subset of any of the 366,000
> > records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be
> > described in many different ways that are not consistent.
> >
> > Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping
> > information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of
> > tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not
> > aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging.
> > However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work
> > better with a more robust database.
> >
> > Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database
> > structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have
> > never seen such a jumble of terminology.
> >
> > Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data
> > Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design.
> > I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field,
> > since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s.
> >
> > I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative
> > but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less
> > than ideal. My observation from creating a few software applications, is
> > that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there
> > needs to be in the user interface and training. GIS and GPS data collection
> > is not particularly intuitive.
> >
> > My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with
> > the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they
> > do? Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data
> > collection process to feed into that.
> >
> > In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the
> > value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and
> > volleyball. To be fair, many of the other attributes could have value in
> > providing relief services but in the record set that I downloaded, there
> > seems to be little information related to the emergency relief effort. In
> > over 366,000 records there are only 19 marked as aeroway = helipad.
> >
> > I'm not sure just how thorough you intend to be with the "updating,
> > streamlining and regularizing" but I would be happy to help where possible.
> >
> > It would probably not be overly difficult to substitute a new
> > feature/attribute catalogue into the OSM database. Translating the existing
> > mass of keys and values to their new equivalent might be more challenging.
> > Databases succeed because they conform to standard pattern sets.
> >
> > Again, sorry to be less than enthusiastic but perhaps things can be
> > improved.
> >
> >        Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 17-05-2015 08:29 Sunday, Stefan Keller wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Blake Many thanks for your clarifications. 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00
> >> Blake Girardot <bgirardot at gmail.com> wrote/a 
> écrit: ... > We would welcome
> >> any assistance with updating, streamlining 
> and regularizing > HOT's tagging
> >> and tagging guidance and underlying data 
> model if need be. I'd like to help
> >> and my proposal is 1. to collect and identify most common tags specific to
> >> HOT 2. to mention and document them in Wiki 
> page "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1]
> >> So, to begin collecting the candidates, I only foumd these two: *
> >> damage:event=* * operator:type=private • goveernment  ¢ community The
> >> "idp:camp_site=spontaneous_campp" is already sub-specific to a disaster
> >> event. Any others tag or key candidates? Yours, S. [1]
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags 2015-05-15 22:13
> >> GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot 
> <bgirardot at gmail.com>: > > Hi Stefan, > > HOT (and
> >> OSM) tagging has grown and evolved since we 
> first started 5 or 6 > years ago
> >> that is for sure. And given the somewhat 
> intermittent > participatory nature
> >> of OSM and the wiki things can for sure get out of > sync. > > We would
> >> welcome any assistance with updating, 
> streamlining and regularizing > HOT's
> >> tagging and tagging guidance and underlying 
> data model if need be. It > is a
> >> big project for the folks in and out of HOT 
> who developed and maintain > it.
> >> > > It was through gentle ;) feedback from 
> the OSM community that we have >
> >> started use some more planned tagging 
> schemes you mentioned so there is yet
> >> > time for some of that to catch up. > > I 
> am excited for us to roll up our
> >> sleeves and give the tagging, guidance, > 
> data model and rendering a timely
> >> review and updating. At the moment many in > HOT are concentrating on
> >> working with our fellow travelers in Nepal (and DRC > and Vanuatu and Guam
> >> and South Sudan and Nigeria and several other places > unfortunately), but
> >> when that begins to thankfully be less of an urgent > matter several of us
> >> look forward to joining you fully in the process. > > And like I said, any
> >> reorganization or updating and streaming in the wiki > you could help us
> >> with in the mean time will be very welcome and > appreciated. If you have
> >> any questions please just ask them here on the > mailing list but under a
> >> different email thread so it is less confusing > talking about something
> >> that has nothing to do with this thread. > > Cheers, > Blake > > > On
> >> 5/15/2015 8:43 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: >> >> Salut Pierre, hi Will, dear
> >> leading HOT members, hello all >> >> 2015-05-15 18:44 GMT+02:00 Pierre
> >> Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr >> 
> <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>> wrote: >> >>> Such
> >> a response has brought various discussions on the HOT list on how to >>>
> >> both respond quickly and assure data quality. >> >> >> I really appreciate
> >> your work and the work of all contributors. So >> excuse me if I'm little
> >> bit too harsh now. >> >> I'm trying to to 
> collect the minimal common set of
> >> HOT tags for >> specifying a renderer, for 
> future use and for OSM quality in
> >> general. >> >> Will already answered finally 
> in an earlier post (thanks!) -
> >> but I'm >> sorry to say: What we (OSM) now have in HOT pages is a tag mess
> >> since >> years! >> >> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps there a
> >> process on tagging >> mailing list I'm missing? Here's what I found: >> >>
> >> To me the potential main HOT tag page is "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1]. >>
> >> This page is very "orphaned" - it has been edited twice since 2013(!?). >>
> >> It prominently points to 
> "Humanitarian_Data_Background" as "An >> up-to-date
> >> list of tags for HOT" - being a page which 
> has been updated >> 3.5 years ago
> >> (!?). >> >> Then I see that no single wiki page with Nepal in its title -
> >> including >> "2015_Nepal_earthquake" [3] - is pointing to
> >> Humanitarian_OSM_Tags, >> whereas the 
> Nepal_remote_mapping_guide [4] mainly
> >> lists the usual main >> tags (like building=yes, natural=wood|water,
> >> water=*, waterway=river, >> waterway=stream, landuse=farmland). >> >> I
> >> would expect at least to see tags like damage:event and idp:camp_site >> -
> >> being top 20 in [6] - to show up in any wiki page related to tags >>
> >> mentioned above. >> But these aren't even mentioned in the wiki except
> >> somehow in [4] - but >> which was declared outdated 2013. >> >> How can we
> >> clean up this under-documented mess and "tag soup" at least >> for a small
> >> common set of tags? >> >> Yours, S. >> >> [1]
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags  >> [2] >> >>
> >> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Background
> >> >> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake  >> [4]
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide#Tagging  >>
> >> [5] >> >>
> >> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Model
> >> >> [6] 
> http://nepal-taginfo.openstreetmap.hu/keys >> >> >> 2015-05-15 18:44
> >> GMT+02:00 Pierre Béland 
> <pierzenh at yahoo.fr >> <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>>:
> >> >> >> >>   This OSM response for Nepal is quite challenging. And even more
> >> >>   difficult for our friends at the Kathmandu Living Labs (KLL) who >>
> >> have to suffer the emotional impact of the second earthquake this >>
> >> week. They also have to move from the famous 
> Yellow house to a >>   school.
> >> This should assure them a more secure area to work. >>   Cheers to them
> >> that maintain the Nepal earthquake Ushahidi map, >>   provide various
> >> mapping services to the humanitarian in the field >>   and assure the
> >> interface with the Nepal governement and the various >>   UN Coordination
> >> structures for this response (ie The clusters to >>   coordinate
> >> sanitation, water, logistic, food 
> distribution, health, >> etc). >> >>   As
> >> usual, the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap community assures the >>   interface
> >> between the OSM community, the UN agencies and the >>   international
> >> organizations. We support the OSM remote 
> response from >>   around the word
> >> and we co-coordinate with KLL. We both interface >>   with the DHNetwork
> >> digital organization and various other groups via >>   Skype. We have a
> >> great support from the International Charter >>   (imagery providers),
> >> UNOSAT, DigitalGlobe, Airbus, the HIU unit of >>   the US State dept.,
> >> Google, and our dedicated OSM/HOT experienced >>   contributors and
> >> developpers. >> >>   Plus the various groups that provide the 30 minutes
> >> updates for the >>   various OSM exports. >> >>
> >> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake#Map_and_Data_Services
> >> >>   Still more challenges to come with the landslides risks and the >>
> >> monsoon coming soon. >> >>   At the same time, it is important to assure a
> >> good coordination of >>   the OSM community from around the world. The
> >> statistics below show >>   great numbers and some challenges with all the
> >> new contributors that >>   participate to 
> the response. Note that these are
> >> preliminary >>   statistics that can be revised later. With less then 3
> >> weeks of >>   response, we already have edited more the 13 million of
> >> objects. >> >>   The pbf export file increased from 27 megs april 24 to 84
> >> megs >>   yesterday. Three times bigger. This is quite awesome. It also
> >> shows >>   how we should adapt to such a rapid growth of the OSM database
> >> for >>   Nepal and maintain quality to adequately respond to the
> >> operational >>   needs of the humanitarian organizations in the field. >>
> >> >> >>   Preliminary statistics, Nepal Response Apr-25 ­ May 15, including
> >> >>   worldwide mecchanical edits        NB >>   Contributors *6,456* >>
> >> Days      *11,877* >> Changeset Sessions *154,048* >>   Objects edited
> >> (ie. Points, lines, polygons)      *13,089,247* >> >> >>   Such a response
> >> has brought various discussions on the HOT 
> list on >>   how to both respond
> >> quickly and assure data quality. OSM >>   crowdsourcing can be compared to
> >> an image that we load throug >>   internet. First, we have a quite
> >> inprecise image, coming 
> clearer >>   gradually. The Mapathons a bit of this
> >> role. If unorganized, they >>   can bring a lot of data quality problems.
> >> The worlwide OSM >>   community can play a strategic role in such a
> >> response by >>   contributing to structure the way the new contributors
> >> learn OSM and >>   edit the map. For the 
> first day of contribution, what is
> >> important >>   is that people better understand what are the various steps
> >> and >>   provide quality data. If we succeed to bring them a second day to
> >> >>   help, this will show quite a significant succcess since the majority
> >> >>   of them contribute only one day for the response. >> >>   There will
> >> be surely Lessons learned from this Response. For now, I >>   suggest that
> >> people that organize Mapathons communicate with >>   activation @
> >> hotosm.org <http://hotosm.org> and provide some infos >>   about the
> >> Mapathon >>   - who Organize this mapathon >>   - town, country >>   -
> >> Name, email of organizers >>   - how many experienced osm contributors to
> >> support the mapathon >>   - Nb of people that you plan to receive >>   -
> >> twitter account if you plan to publish updates >>   - indicate that you
> >> give HOT the license to reuse photos that 
> you >>   publish on Twitter. This
> >> can help for outreach and various Blog >> updates. >> >>   *Various map
> >> products* >> >>   UNOSAT GDACS Live map with 
> geolocated damage analysis. >>
> >> >>
> >> 
> https://unosat.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=b9f9da798f364cd6a6e68fc20f5475eb
> >> >> >>   Visualisation, /Potentially Dangerous Glacial Lakes of Nepal >>
> >> / >> http://geoportal.icimod.org/storymaps/nepalglakes/  >> >>   Lanslides
> >> in the mountains with the last earthquake this week - See >>   this video
> >> to better understand the reality of people living in >>   remote areas of
> >> Nepal with only paths connecting the high mountain >>   villages. >>
> >> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599005434733789185  >> >>   A
> >> Visualisation Gift from Christian Quest of 
> OSM-fr >>   New contributions to
> >> OSM for Nepal >>   Awesoooooooooooooooooooooome!!! >>
> >> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198
> >> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198 >> >>   twitter update on
> >> this >> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599232884982026241  >>   Cheers
> >> all >> >>   Pierre >> >> >> 
> _______________________________________________
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> >> <mailto:HOT at openstreetmap.org> >>
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > > >> >> >>
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> >> HOT at openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >




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