[HOT] Tasking ManagerS (Was: {Re: Map4Haiti} + {[Hot-francophone] Project over Grand'Anse})

Rod Bera rod at goarem.org
Mon Oct 24 14:11:22 UTC 2016

Hi Cristiano,

I totally agree and didn't suggest we should stop mapping in good
intelligence until we implement a catalogue tool.

We all know where priorities are.

My point as a reply to Mikel was just to say that given history there
are good reasons for having several TM (which was not initially
anticipated), and as the situation is likely to endure there is a need
in the long run to converge to common practices/tools.

Though as far as I can tell this is the first time there is a
geographical+temporal+thematic overlap (which is NOT going to be a clash
because people cooperate), there will be others in the future as these 2
TM are not the only ones. I could find 6-8 more months ago, and
everybody can have their own...

Best regards,


On 24/10/16 15:50, Cristiano Giovando wrote:
> Hi Rod,
> As you can read from my email to the francophone list, the only reason
> for publishing that project is to be able to coordinate with
> ProjetEOF. As I mentioned it is set to low priority so it won't show
> up at the top of tasks for people to use until we agree on it.
> I also appreciate your proposal for a global indexing of OSM tasking
> managers, but until that tool is developed, it would be great to
> inform each other and discuss areas that may have potential overlap.
> That is the reason why I sent my message to the hot-francophone
> mailing list, asking for feedback and to discuss the issue around
> imagery recency.
> Only one task (for a test) was done in HOT's #2252, and two (at the
> time of this writing) in ProjetEOF's #64. Please let's focus the
> discussion on what needs to be mapped and with what imagery - that to
> me is the most important thing to worry about right now.
> Thanks for your understanding and please let me know if you have other
> ideas for ensuring coordination in the short term.
> Thank you,
> Cristiano
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Rod Bera <rod at goarem.org> wrote:
>> now we've got overlapping tasks.
>> http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/64
>> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2252
>> where do we go from here?
>> This could/should have been anticipated/prevented.
>> Now we should consider trans-TM indexing, as these and other TM
>> instances are probably here to last.
>> On 24/10/16 10:07, Cristiano Giovando wrote:
>>> Bonjour,
>>> (s'il vous plaît excuser mon anglais)
>>> There are three WorldView 3 images available, captured on October 10
>>> over the Grand'Anse and Sud departments. These have limited cloud
>>> coverage and show very dramatically the impact of Hurricane Matthew in
>>> western Haiti:
>> https://beta.openaerialmap.org/#/-74.3994140625,18.521278249360137,10/032210312003?date=month&_k=uvs9ut
>>> We, at HOT would like to create three tasks to update all baseline
>>> information as shown by those images. I noticed that you guys
>>> currently have a task over the same area which is using Bing as
>>> default imagery source:
>>> http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/64
>>> In order to coordinate our efforts, I would like you to consider this
>>> project that I just set up and ask you to let me know if you think it
>>> would make sense to publish it first, since it has that more recent
>>> imagery:
>>> http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2252
>>> Right now it's published with low priority, just for you to be able to
>>> see it. For reference, this is the exact extent:
>> http://geojson.io/#id=gist:anonymous/5cfec955932472ebd1d23a01421a42c5&map=11/18.4698/-74.4193
>>> Please let me know what you think, also in terms of instructions.
>>> Happy to discuss or change anything based on everyone's feedback
>>> before publishing it (bumping it up to high priority).
>>> Also, we will not be doing any damage assessment (as indicated in the
>>> task), so if you guys have any need to do it, feel free to use the TMS
>>> services off of OAM. Here's one to browse the same October 10 image:
>> http://oam-dynamic-tiler-tmp.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/57fecc6984ae75bb00ec752c/preview/#19/18.57497/-74.38157
>>> Looking forward to your feedback.
>>> Thank you,
>>> Cristiano
>> On 24/10/16 11:46, Rod Bera wrote:
>>> Hi Mikel,
>>>> that's a seperate topic from running an additional unnecessary
>>>> tasking manager.
>>> to me it's not.
>>> As I understand things, the fact that a task needs to be
>>> endorsed/supported by HOT if it is to appear on tasks.hotosm.org is a
>>> problem. The fact that only co-opted ("trained", "friends") individual
>>> can post a task is a problem too.
>>> There were discussions on this in the past with people advocating a more
>>> open policy for tasks.hotosm.org.
>>> This did not happen for some reasons internal to HOT US Inc.
>>> Then it appeared as a logical consequence that others would set-up
>>> tasking managers fit for their needs.
>>> Related to this is last year's discussion on default logos (TM by
>>> default had a HOT logo), name (HOT tasking manager formerly incorrectly
>>> known as OSM tasking manager). This was settled, more or less.
>>> The next logical step (I also mentioned it at that time) was what is
>>> happening now: possibly conflicting tasks. Well it is not the case yet:
>>> as as far as I can see there is no overlap between tasks from
>>> tasks.hotosm.org and tasks from taches.francophonelibre.org, but it will
>>> fatally happen at some point.
>>> To address this I proposed a number of solutions which had not much
>>> success:
>>> -indexing tasking managers and tasks into a reference catalogue, or
>>> -indexing TMs and tasks into catalogueS, possibly one for each TM with
>>> service metadata, and subsequently allow for either cross-harvesting, or
>>> -bottom-up harvesting if there is a truly community-operated reference
>>> catalogue endorsed by everyone.
>>> I agree this makes things a bit complicated as it would ideally require
>>> GeoNetwork instances (ideally one for each TM) or something similar. But
>>> the INSPIRE SDI experience in Europe shows it works quite smoothly.
>>> However I agree it adds-up some complexity where we could avoid it. If
>>> only there was only ONE TM that would be EVERYONE'S TM.
>>> The de facto control of the original TM by HOT with a disputable policy
>>> as to who had a right/privilege to define and post tasks broke up this hope.
>>> Given this I have no problem with tasks.hotosm.org being administered
>>> with HOT US Inc. rules. Or other TM being administered according to
>>> different policies. We are diverse after all.
>>> Now, we probably agree that beyond this diversity we have to work
>>> together as a global community.
>>> To this aim I'll be happy to collaborate with you to find ways of coming
>>> up with the kind of "universal catalogue of tasks" we (OSM) need.
>>> tasks.hotosm.org #2219 #2229 #2236 #2237 #2248 etc., as well as
>>> taches.francophonelibre.org #35 #40 # 41 #45 #63 #64 #65 #66 #67 etc.
>>> are all pertinent and they all should be primarily viewed as the
>>> contributions from the OSM community instead of the organisations
>>> running the tasking managers.
>>> Regards,
>>> Rod
>>> On 15/10/16 15:28, Mikel Maron wrote:
>>>> Agree with you John. Working with local mapper groups of course is the
>>>> best. There are many French speaking HOT members and volunteers,
>>>> including in Haiti.
>>>> But that's a seperate topic from running an additional unnecessary
>>>> tasking manager.
>>>> Mikel
>>>> On Saturday, October 15, 2016, 9:08 AM, john whelan
>>>> <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>     Which begs the question why should HOT decide the priorities?
>>>>     I note that we don't see many projects from local groups especially
>>>>     in the high priority list and in this case Haiti the local language
>>>>     is French which means it is more difficult for the local needs to be
>>>>     understood by none francophone outsiders.
>>>>     There are problems with the functioning of the government of Haiti
>>>>     but there are functioning OSM locals but the best way to strengthen
>>>>     them is to work with them.
>>>>     Cheerio John
>>>>     On 15 October 2016 at 08:03, Mikel Maron <mikel.maron at gmail.com
>>>>     <javascript:return>> wrote:
>>>>         Having two tasking managers for the same response area is of
>>>>         course going to create conflicts. There's no need at all to
>>>>         create jobs for Haiti on another tasking manager. Simply,
>>>>         communicate the needs for mapping, including AOI, need, etc, to
>>>>         the HOT activation team and it will be prioritized and set up.
>>>>         Mikel
>>>>         On Saturday, October 15, 2016, 4:51 AM, Severin Menard
>>>>         <severin.menard at gmail.com <javascript:return>> wrote:
>>>>             Hi,
>>>>             New update about our contribution to the OSM Map4Haiti
>>>>             mapping. Job #45
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/45#task/61> is
>>>>             almost done now and we will start mapping the rural areas
>>>>             within the hills of département of Grande-Anse, over the
>>>>             communes of Abricots, Dame-Marie, Chambellan, Moron, Anse
>>>>             d'Hainault and Grande Anse, located in the most affected
>>>>             areas by Hurricane Matthew (UNOSAT impact zone 1, with winds
>>>>             over 120 km/h) with job #64
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/64>, continuing
>>>>             our systematic, consolidated effort over the hills (called
>>>>             mornes in Haiti).
>>>>             We hold an agile SOTM today here at Université Alassane
>>>>             Ouattara and will have a team of crisis mapping during the
>>>>             whole day to show students and people what it is. No
>>>>             newcomer will be invited to map on Haiti from Bouaké but
>>>>             invited to become a local mapper, raise his skills and join
>>>>             later when experienced enough.
>>>>             I hope this message is read by the HOT US coordination team,
>>>>             especially Dale Kunce:
>>>>             October 8 6:30 PM UTC I communicated about job #39
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/39> about
>>>>             pre-disaster mapping over Jeremie. On October 12, when our
>>>>             mapping is almost done on Central Jeremie, we figure out
>>>>             people are mapping on the area, due to a HOT US job #2228
>>>>             <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228> created by Dale
>>>>             Kunce. We stopped and quickly detected all the mistakes done
>>>>             by very recent mappers.
>>>>             October 12 11:40 AM UTC I communicated on the hot list
>>>>             including regarding job #45
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/45> about
>>>>             mapping Jeremie’s hinterland. Later this day, HOT US job
>>>>             #2224 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2224> covering an
>>>>             area slightly smaller inside the one I made was created by
>>>>             Dale Kunce... As if there was no other places to be mapped
>>>>             in Haiti...
>>>>             So far, we created 7 jobs over Haiti, I communicated about
>>>>             them and they are all on the
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org>http://taches.
>>>>             francophonelibre.org frontpage, so it is not a big deal just
>>>>             to check them.
>>>>             @Dale I think HOT US created a curriculum to raise skills to
>>>>             become Crisis activators, I would advise you to read it one
>>>>             day when you have a bit of time. If ever it does not mention
>>>>             to read and communicate in the hot list during an
>>>>             activation, I would suggest to add it into the
>>>>             documentation. As an incorporated company, HOT US may have
>>>>             its own internal tools to organize its mapping, but the
>>>>             minimum is to communicate a bit on the hot list with the OSM
>>>>             community, who is the holder of this list (as everything
>>>>             with @openstreetmap.org <http://openstreetmap.org>).
>>>>             If you now create a new job covering job #45
>>>>             <http://taches.francophonelibre.org/project/45#task/61>, I
>>>>             may try next time to create a job in the middle of the
>>>>             water, just to see if you jump on it.
>>>>             Sincerely,
>>>>             Severin
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>> --
>> Rod Béra,  MCF Géomatique                /   Lecturer, Geomatics
>>            et SIG pour l'Environnement  /    and Environmental GIS
>> Agrocampus-Ouest|65 r.Saint-Brieuc|CS84215|35042 Rennes cedex|France
>> +33 (0) 223 48 5553 - roderic.bera at agrocampus-ouest.fr
>> _______________________________________________
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Rod Béra,  MCF Géomatique                /   Lecturer, Geomatics
           et SIG pour l'Environnement  /    and Environmental GIS
Agrocampus-Ouest|65 r.Saint-Brieuc|CS84215|35042 Rennes cedex|France
+33 (0) 223 48 5553 - roderic.bera at agrocampus-ouest.fr

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