[HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of Conduct Reminder

nicolas chavent nicolas.chavent at gmail.com
Sat Dec 16 21:34:52 UTC 2017

Hi all,

*Resending the below-piece on the HOT US Inc membership list as well as the
hot at openstreetmap.org <hot at openstreetmap.org> mailing lists that were
dropped by some in their last exchanges. *
*It looks like the conversation make progresses towards areas of
agreement. *

Thanks for those who contributed to this discussion about the regulation of
the hot at openstreetmap.org mailing list (one of the many OpenStreetMap
Commons) as as a response to Dale Kunce.
As president of HOT US Inc, Dale attempted to enforce its organization
regulation to the English OSM list for discussions about OSM uses across
the humanitarian and development sectors.
His email reminding the hot at openstreetmap.org subscribers “of the Code of
Conduct https://www.hotosm.org/hot_cod. [that] will be enforced and
offenders will be asked to leave our community", is troublesome:
- it introduces confusion in terms of OSM mailing-lists regulations
- it can read as an attempt to seize and control an OSM common resource
(Commons) by one single organization
- it singled again himself and his organization specific culture the same
way it did during the OSMF election [1].

The discussions allow yet to make progresses and produce clarity.

Thanks to Mikel Maron, it’s established that:
> The hot at openstreetmap.org mailing list is not subject to any more
restrictions than any other OSMF maintained list. It is not restricted to
HOT members and partners, nor is it subject to HOT governance.
> The OSMF hosted mailing lists fall under the etiquette and moderation
guidelines at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette.

This rightfully resumes the 2017 OSMF talks about the status of discussions
in OSM shall they happen over the web (mailing lists, fora, wikis…) or
during local events.

Our talks shall focus on the status of this OSM Etiquette, its past uses if
any and the relevance of future uses and the how, what and who of any

Looking at CoC for local events, one shall note that this is also largely
cultural and contingent in OSM and in the OpenData world. Many SOTM global
and local in the past happened without any CoC, the same goes for large
similar events like the Dec 2016  OpenGovernmentPartnership (OGP) summit in
Paris (5,000 participants).


On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 12:10 AM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the UK at the end of the evening there is a well known phrase used in
> places that serve alcohol.
> "Time gentlemen please."
> The post that set this off had an element of frustration and it was
> unfortunate that the subject was a sensitive one at that time.  With a bit
> of good will it could have been accepted as such.
> All programmers know that unless it is a one man band they write to the
> specs and if a feature wasn't included in the specs then its wrong to blame
> the programmer.  I used to be one and I recall once when asked why wasn't a
> feature included by a high level manager and I had to reply I specifically
> asked if it should be but was told by the business contact no it was not to
> be included.
> There is a cultural difference between HOT and OSM.  I seem to recall once
> someone from an NGO say they didn't need OSM mappers they could provide
> their own in maperthons.
> If HOT and OSM can work together then there are gains for both sides.
> Armchair mapping is only good to drop in the basic outlines.  HOT projects
> are reasonably good at dropping in a highway network and identifying
> settlements.  It really does need local expertise to finish the job.  So
> micro grants, training on the ground all help and hopefully we'll start to
> see a few internet cafes and bicycle repair shops mapped which is normal
> OSM style mapping that gets enriched over time.
> Can we accept there are some differences and please move on.  Can we work
> on finding some areas where we agree?
> Thanks John
> On 15 December 2017 at 17:38, Rafael Avila Coya <ravilacoya at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi, Rory:
>> My comments inline.
>> On 15/12/17 20:19, Rory McCann wrote:
>>> What's wrong with each mailing list having separate, per list moderation
>>> and rules?
>> Well, the OSM community at large should approve each list rules. Quite a
>> mess, having so many OSM fora. Don't you think so?
>> Why not give HOT Inc moderation power of the hot@ list? If a group wants
>>> to run its group according to specific rules (within some limits), what's
>>> wrong with that?
>> Because HOT inc is an independent org. It's easier to have a list on
>> their own, like the hot membership list and others, apart from the HOT inc
>> tasking manager, github account, etc. Each org has the right to decide
>> their own rules of governance. I am fine with that.
>>> OSMF doesn't have a global code of conduct (yet 😉), but State of the
>>> Map conferences do. Same idea.
>> State of the Map is a face to face event, not mailing list. It's normal
>> that there can be some rules to avoid problems with the country hosting the
>> event. A mailing list is of universal access. Therefore, what is acceptable
>> in one place is unacceptable in other. Some people of one area find normal
>> what others find rude. There is nothing bad in that. The huge majority of
>> us are good faith people. We just need to be a bit flexible, that's it.
>> Cheers,
>> Rafael.
>>> On 15 December 2017 19:43:43 CET, Dale Kunce <dale.kunce at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>     Just to clear the air. I misspoke in my initial post when I said the
>>>     HOT CoC would be enforced on this list. I've since learned that the
>>>     HOT list is not administered by HOT and thus our community crafted
>>>     CoC does not apply here. Note: it does apply to all other HOT
>>>     communication channels, including Tasking Manager, GitHub, slack,
>>> etc.
>>>     As Mikel said the existing OSM Etiquette rules, however, do apply in
>>>     this space.
>>>     My earlier statement of asking all community members of this list to
>>>     think twice about what you say on this list. This is not an effort
>>>     to curb free speech but instead to build a positive collaborative
>>>     space to discuss.
>>>     On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Russell Deffner
>>>     <russell.deffner at hotosm.org <mailto:russell.deffner at hotosm.org>>
>>> wrote:
>>>         Hi all,
>>>         I would prefer to participate in mailing lists that are governed
>>>         by CoC and enforced by an organized group rather than
>>> individuals.
>>>         =Russ
>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>         From: Dan S [mailto:danstowell+osm at gmail.com
>>>         <mailto:danstowell%2Bosm at gmail.com>]
>>>         Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 11:11 AM
>>>         To: Rafael Avila Coya
>>>         Cc: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>         <mailto:osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>; Mapa Nauta;
>>>         hot at openstreetmap.org <mailto:hot at openstreetmap.org>
>>>         Subject: Re: [HOT] [Osmf-talk] [hotosm-membership] Re: Code of
>>>         Conduct Reminder
>>>         Hi
>>>         It does seem to me that more clarity would be good here, i.e.
>>>         slightly
>>>         disentangling the lines of accountability regarding the hot@
>>> mailing
>>>         list.
>>>         Mikel's response has logical sense, but it's probably not clear
>>>         to the
>>>         average participant in the hot@ mailing list whether they are
>>>         automatically made a part of the HOT community. Whether the best
>>>         clarification is to have two mailing lists, or for the info page
>>>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>> to make clear
>>>         whether
>>>         it is in general governed by HOT's rules, I don't know.
>>>         Best
>>>         Dan
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         HOT mailing list
>>>         HOT at openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT at openstreetmap.org>
>>>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         HOT mailing list
>>>         HOT at openstreetmap.org <mailto:HOT at openstreetmap.org>
>>>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot>
>>>     --     sent from my mobile device
>>>     Dale Kunce
>>>     http://normalhabit.com
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> osmf-talk mailing list
>>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>> _______________________________________________
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>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> _______________________________________________
> HOT mailing list
> HOT at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
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Email: nicolas.chavent at gmail.com
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Twitter: nicolas_chavent
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