[HOT] Broken (multi)polygon cleanup

john whelan jwhelan0112 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 17 14:48:00 UTC 2017


I've read it through but remember like many mappers I do not have a Ph.D.
in GIS, just a degree in Chemistry so I'm usually not too bad on logic.

The first thing that stands out is the message is too complex for the
intended audience.

The second "The *new style* tagging option is the recommended tagging
option these days, but some mappers still disagree."  So we don't have
complete agreement, fine.

The third is the main problem areas seem to be some rendering systems
prefer one method over the other.  "Are we mapping for a specific rendering
system now?"

I get the impression that the main problem is areas of landuse or defining
countries.  The defining country side I leave to specialists.
Landuse=forest type things are often out of date and problematical.

At a basic level I think we are talking using JOSM to do this work.  I hate
to say it but despite my efforts JOSM is still not main stream for HOT
mapathons.  So essentially we will confuse the audience and confused HOT
mappers may lead to other problems.

I suspect if we concentrate on unclosed ways and duplicate segments then
this is something that can be done without a Ph.D. in GIS concepts and
there is no disagreement.  Leave the more complex problem solving to others.

I have yet to see a HOT project that asks mappers to map country outlines.
I have seen some that ask for landuse=residential but that is about as
complicated as it normally gets.  There might be one or two odd ones that
ask for landuse but these days they are rare.  The bulk of the mapping is
buildings and highways with the occasional river thrown in and I don't
think these are problem areas to you.

There have been some imports in the HOT areas of questionable data quality
some are fine but that is a different matter to HOT mapping.

I would recommend if you wish to use the resources of HOT that you talk
nicely to the HOT training group and see if they can sort out the message
and what training needs to be given to support these efforts including what
you would like mappers to avoid when mapping.

Thanks

Cheerio John



On 17 March 2017 at 09:43, Jochen Topf <jochen at remote.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> did you read those documents linked from http://area.jochentopf.com/ ?
>
> https://github.com/osmlab/fixing-polygons-in-osm/blob/
> master/doc/background.md
> https://github.com/osmlab/fixing-polygons-in-osm/blob/
> master/doc/problems.md
> https://github.com/osmlab/fixing-polygons-in-osm/blob/master/doc/faq.md
>
> If there is something unclear after reading them, please ask, and I am
> happy to explain.
>
> Jochen
>
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 08:30:27AM -0400, john whelan wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 08:30:27 -0400
> > From: john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
> > To: Jochen Topf <jochen at remote.org>
> > Cc: "hot at openstreetmap.org" <hot at openstreetmap.org>, Blake Girardot
> HOT/OSM
> >  <blake.girardot at hotosm.org>
> > Subject: Re: [HOT] Broken (multi)polygon cleanup
> >
> > What isn't clear to me is just what you are trying to fix.  The term
> means
> > nothing to me.  I am correcting duplicate segments and unclosed ways
> which
> > appear to be part of your problem as I work.  Perhaps someone can explain
> > what you are after in simpler terms because if we don't understand the
> > problem then trying to come up with ways to avoid it in the future isn't
> > going to happen.
> >
> > Thanks John
> >
> > On 17 March 2017 at 08:16, Jochen Topf <jochen at remote.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > I am sure there are many other problems, but can we please keep to the
> > > issue at hand in this thread? I am not trying to solve all problems, I
> > > am trying to solve one particular set of problem related to
> > > (multi)polygons.
> > >
> > > And I didn't pick that particular problem at random. This is something
> > > that affects everybody. The short of it is: Due to upcoming software
> > > changes, some (multi)polygons that are rendered now will disappear from
> > > the map or look different in the future. Again, you can find all the
> > > details about the problems and of what we are trying to achieve at
> > > http://area.jochentopf.com/ .
> > >
> > > We are having great success working on these problems. You can see the
> > > stats at http://area.jochentopf.com/stats/ . This doesn't mean that
> the
> > > approach will be the best one for other problems, and it doesn't mean
> we
> > > can't do even better than we are doing until now with this problem.
> > >
> > > Btw: I am deliberately talking about "(multi)polygons". This is not
> > > something that only affects multipolygon relations, but all polygons,
> > > even the ones created from closed ways. They are simpler than mp
> > > relations, but that doesn't mean they can't have problems.
> > >
> > > Jochen
> > >
> > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 05:23:47PM -0400, john whelan wrote:
> > > > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:23:47 -0400
> > > > From: john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
> > > > To: Jochen Topf <jochen at remote.org>
> > > > Cc: hot at openstreetmap.org, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
> > > >  <blake.girardot at hotosm.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [HOT] Broken (multi)polygon cleanup
> > > >
> > > > This is similar to my pulling in Africa a country at a time and using
> > > JOSM
> > > > to check for errors.
> > > >
> > > > What I have noticed is one mapper will misstag then others will
> follow.
> > > So
> > > > sanitising the area or checking it for errors before the new HOT
> mappers
> > > > start would probably improve the overall data quality as they tend to
> > > > follow what is already mapped.
> > > >
> > > > Untagged ways by one mapper tend to cluster.  I've seen a 100
> buildings
> > > in
> > > > one small area by the same mapper left as area=yes.  That's quick and
> > > easy
> > > > to fix.
> > > >
> > > > Recently I came across 42 highways left untagged by the same mapper
> in
> > > the
> > > > same area.  The mapper had more than 2,000 edits so wasn't
> inexperienced.
> > > >
> > > > Crossing highways often I'll see a town where the highway
> residentials
> > > are
> > > > laid out in a grid but the junctions aren't nodes.
> > > >
> > > > Another nice recent one was a batch of settlements that had been
> tagged
> > > > highway=unclassified rather than landuse=residential.  Searching for
> > > > highways above unclassified and crossing ways picked those out quite
> > > > quickly.
> > > >
> > > > These types of errors are handled more quickly directly in JOSM than
> > > > involving maproulette.
> > > >
> > > > Even the some other errors can be loaded up in the JOSM  to-do
> plugin.
> > > >
> > > > I've been cleaning up in Nigeria for a while now.  Making repeated
> passes
> > > > over the same areas over time.  I'm seeing fewer errors so my
> suspicion
> > > is
> > > > the improved learnOSM, tutorials and simplifying what we ask mappers
> to
> > > map
> > > > is paying off.  Validating new mappers work within 48 hours does pay
> off
> > > in
> > > > data quality terms.  Giving feedback more than two weeks later is
> > > usually a
> > > > waste of time based on my own experience and Martin's report but I
> don't
> > > > think we have the validators to do the validation within the magic
> 24/48
> > > > hours.
> > > >
> > > > Broken multipolyons do take a level of expertise to resolve.  I
> usually
> > > > avoid them.  However new mappers will fearlessly tread ahead and it
> is to
> > > > be expected they will break some.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think learnOSM goes into detail about them or about
> > > relationships.
> > > > Should they?  That's another question.
> > > >
> > > > For some errors we need boots on the ground.  Especially when it
> comes to
> > > > urban areas with limited access highways such as dual carriageways​
> and a
> > > > highway approaching them can you turn in either direction?
> > > >
> > > > Often the most motivated people to fix the errors are the locals who
> will
> > > > be using the map.  Trouble is we first have to get something in place
> > > that
> > > > is useful to get them motivated.
> > > >
> > > > So yes HOT maperthons do have a reputation of the blind leading the
> > > blind,
> > > > ie some are led by inexperienced mappers but we are putting effort
> into
> > > > reducing the number of errors.  The training group has put together a
> > > very
> > > > good detailed set of instructions on how best to run a maperthon and
> if
> > > you
> > > > can identify a problem area HOT will listen and try to address the
> > > issues.
> > > >
> > > > Cheerio John
> > > >
> > > > On 16 Mar 2017 3:49 pm, "Jochen Topf" <jochen at remote.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Blake,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 05:29:04PM +0100, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM
> wrote:
> > > > > > Can you send me something that would help me see those 1600
> examples
> > > > > > you found on OSM so I can see what might be going on and how to
> > > > > > improve things in HOT/MM workflow to reduce them?
> > > > >
> > > > > Those 1600 are some very specific errors I am currently looking
> at, but
> > > > > only have those on my local machine currently. But for the wider
> > > picture
> > > > > you can use the OSM Inspectors "area" view to see the scope of the
> > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just go to any place where HOT/MM was active. Here is an example:
> > > > > http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=areas&lon=33.65927&
> > > > > lat=-2.07600&zoom=8
> > > > >
> > > > > My current workflow is as follows: I choose one particular
> well-defined
> > > > > problem and extract the data from OSM that shows this problem.
> Then I
> > > > > put the data into Maproulette and document the problem and how to
> fix
> > > > > it. Some problems are easier, some harder to fix. Mappers can
> choose
> > > > > what problems to work on based on their skill level. If somebody
> > > > > doesn't feel comfortable with one of the harder problems, there are
> > > > > simpler ones they can work on. I also have some more general
> > > > > descriptions for the experts who want to go exploring/fixing on
> their
> > > > > own. Once the challenges are done, I choose a new problem and
> start the
> > > > > process from the beginning.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are the current challenges: http://area.jochentopf.com/
> > > fixing.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Usually I am splitting up larger challenges into regions, for
> instance
> > > > > by continent or country. I could also do this by HOT activation
> area or
> > > > > so if that makes sense for HOT mappers. Splitting up, often makes
> the
> > > > > problems easier to fix, because problems inside an area are often
> very
> > > > > similar, but different to problems in other areas due to mapping
> > > > > priorities and methods. For instance, some regions have lots of
> > > problems
> > > > > with buildings, others with landuse areas, etc. Concentrating on
> one
> > > > > very well-defined problem at a time makes all this work simpler.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jochen
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jochen Topf  jochen at remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/
> > > > > +49-351-31778688
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > HOT mailing list
> > > > > HOT at openstreetmap.org
> > > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jochen Topf  jochen at remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/
> > > +49-351-31778688
> > >
>
> --
> Jochen Topf  jochen at remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/
> +49-351-31778688
>
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