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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/09/19 14:48, Nikhil VJ wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH7jeuOMGvPYZY2MZgT0CEwfthdPWdcrXj=ggYKE9pCp1Whcmg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Hi, </div>
<div dir="ltr">While I'm not directly working on this at
present, I do have friends who have been working on this issue
a lot and have successfully moved several urban slum
communities from OD (short for Open Defecation in this email)
to using toilets. They too have been mapping ODAs in their
projects as a starting point.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I think marking ODAs on OpenStreetMap would be
very useful. Here in India while we've had governments
announcing drives to make cities, towns, villages
open-defecation-free (ODF for short). We typically see just
press statements like "we did it!" released without data
support, and on ground there's still places where it's
happening the next day. Mapping would be a great way for civil
society to hold the government body accountable. Once you put
a lat-long on an issue, objective verification is a
straightforward process : Go there and smell (and watch your
step!). And then once map locations are gathered, the
government officials then have the burden of proof of
verifying on a location to location basis.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>I would suggest to mark places as vicinities were OD
happens. This could be as a polygon, or it could be as a point
location and we specify that OD is happening within a X meters
radius. I don't think precise spots (or "personal spots") are
feasible.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>In my city, the green areas esp the ones where you can't
build because it's a low-lying place that will flood in
monsoons, are where OD happens, and if you're walking by in
evenings just after sunset or early mornings you can easily
tell from the smell. We generally do not find OD happening in
a place without greenery - where that happens (like the
infamous Mumbai train tracks) it's typically because there's
no green areas left to go into. Then, there's abandoned plots
where nature has taken over. Those could be marked with
boundary.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Where the waste is left to 'naturally mature' is one thing, where
the waste is collected and taken away is a different thing. I think
these should have separate tags. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH7jeuOMGvPYZY2MZgT0CEwfthdPWdcrXj=ggYKE9pCp1Whcmg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>I liked Warin's inputs: </div>
<div>> .. 'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be
appropriate. And it would be of use to add the tag
'end_date=*' to signify the date of last use.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>----- Addendum -----</div>
<div dir="ltr">I'd like to bring in some ecology aspect to this
as well, just to explain how this is a complicated issue. All
excreta on this planet is recyclable and manure by nature.
Insects and microbes are superbly efficient at this job, as
long as they have access to soil. Green patches continue to be
ODAs precisely because they're quite good at recycling. I had
mentioned about the smell at dawn/dusk : But it's not so much
at all the other times of day, and the same places remain
usable year after year - guess why? Because it's been "taken
care of". </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">But contrast this with the fact that where I
live, what we're flushing through toilets into our sewage
lines is typically mixing in with drainage from kitchens and
washing machines (aka, detergents!) which then ensures that
the stuff does not bio-degrade, and continues being a problem,
only transported "far far away" so it becomes somebody else's
problem. [Trigger warning] I think it's technically correct to
say that in many places of the world, the people using toilets
are causing more environmental damage (that includes me) than
the people defecating in the open, plus they are outsourcing
the problem and imposing it on people poorer than
them.[/Trigger warning] I know there's a lot of other things
at play here and of course I want us all to use toilets and I
want these communities to move to using toilets, but I want to
acknowledge the reality and not shut my eyes to it. I'm
hopeful about solutions like eco-friendly toilets, compost
toilets, lattice-walled pits that mix the stuff with the soil,
those fantastic Australian reed beds, etc.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Water supply in London has recycled water water in it. In Australia
water water is not only recycled into good water (thought there is
stigma to adding it to the drinking water) but also used to make
fertiliser. So it is possible to process the waste water and obtain
worthwhile products from it and reduce the disposal problem a lot. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH7jeuOMGvPYZY2MZgT0CEwfthdPWdcrXj=ggYKE9pCp1Whcmg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Also, at least in my country's common culture
there is a stigma attached to being seen defecating once
you're grown up and so people who have to OD, prefer
green/wooded areas that give them visual cover. Especially
women. I'm sharing all this because there are crazy activists
in our civil society circles who jump and say "Let's wipe out
all the greenery, cement up the whole place and then there
won't be any OD problem here!". Can you understand my horror
at the prospect? That's only going to make the problem a lot
worse.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Indeed.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH7jeuOMGvPYZY2MZgT0CEwfthdPWdcrXj=ggYKE9pCp1Whcmg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Anyways, I have faith that accurately mapping
these areas will help in solving the issue holistically,
because once it's brought up on a map, all sides can engage
constructively instead of abstractly.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Mapping it is a good step to seeing how big the problem is.
Campaigns like "Put your poo in the loo" go some ways to helping.
Mapping the loos (amenity=toilet) aids finding the nearest loo. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH7jeuOMGvPYZY2MZgT0CEwfthdPWdcrXj=ggYKE9pCp1Whcmg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">----- Apologies for the Addendum -----<br>
</div>
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
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<div>--<br>
Cheers,<br>
Nikhil VJ, Pune, India<br>
<a href="https://nikhilvj.co.in"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://nikhilvj.co.in</a></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:33
PM <<a href="mailto:hot-request@openstreetmap.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">hot-request@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of HOT digest..."<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Warin)<br>
2. Re: Open Defecation Area proposal (Bob Kerr)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">hot@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:49:11 +1000<br>
Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal<br>
I have raise this on the OSM tagging list. I have summarised
the <br>
responses below.<br>
<br>
On 08/09/19 21:04, Bob Kerr via HOT wrote:<br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> It has been a very long time since I have posted to the
mailing list. <br>
> So please bear with me if I have landed in the wrong
place.<br>
><br>
> I was recently at a WASH conference
(Water,Sanitation,hygiene). We <br>
> were discussing Open Defecation, people going to the
toilet in the <br>
> open, specially in dense urban areas. Open defecation
areas ODA are <br>
> use by about 850 million people. If they each use 10
different areas a <br>
> year then that is 8.5 billion areas.<br>
This logic appears flawed.<br>
Does each person have their own individual ODA? In a dense
urban <br>
environment I would expect there to be a lack of space for
this.<br>
However,if there are individual ODAs, are they to be mapped
as a <br>
collective rather than each individual one?<br>
<br>
Past ODAs would need to remain mapped .. but not as ODAs as
that implies <br>
present use.<br>
Not certain what to use here but the OSM life cycle tags may
be of use. <br>
'abandoned:open_defecation_area=yes' may be appropriate.<br>
And it would be of use to add the tag 'end_date=*' to
signify the date <br>
of last use.<br>
<br>
The above would reduce the number of areas to be mapped.<br>
><br>
> The only way that this problem can start to be
addressed is if we have <br>
> a map of the areas. A paper map made by MapOSmatic with
theses areas <br>
> marked would be an excellent inspiration for local
communities to deal <br>
> with the problem and would act as competition between
local towns and <br>
> cities to be the cleanest<br>
><br>
> I have checked with taginfo and there are a few
examples on defecation <br>
> but nothing officially proposed.<br>
<br>
Taginfo indicates 53 uses of
'watsan:open_defecation_area=yes', no wiki. <br>
Most use in Africa. just east nor east of Nairobi.<br>
<br>
><br>
> My questions are. Do you think there would be support
for this on the <br>
> humanitarian tile map render and who should I talk to
about adding it <br>
> to the humanitarian style sheet if the proposal is
accepted.<br>
<br>
The 'watsan' appears to be irrelevant information. Possibly
a source? Or <br>
an operator?<br>
In any case the tag would be better as
'open_defecation_area=yes'. If <br>
required other information can be added as subtags, such as
a comment, a <br>
note etc.<br>
<br>
><br>
> I believe I could get a lot of enthusiasm from WASH
communities, they <br>
> would also become enthusiastic mappers because their
first ever map <br>
> was the broad street pump<br>
><br>
> <a
href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak</a><br>
><br>
> Where they used a map to stop cholera<br>
><br>
> The proposal would be simple node and area with picture
of a person <br>
> squatting. I would appreciate guidance as I create
this.<br>
><br>
> Many thanks for your time<br>
><br>
> Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Bob Kerr <<a href="mailto:lendingcd@yahoo.co.uk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lendingcd@yahoo.co.uk</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">hot@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:32:30 +0100<br>
Subject: Re: [HOT] Open Defecation Area proposal<br>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr"><span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>Thank you for posting to the tagging
list, I have now joined that list too</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>To clarify Open Defecation Areas ODA are usually
piles of rubbish in unused spaces, they can be very
large like a rubbish pit or small like an abandoned
doorway. They regularly get cleared but start up
again. Women are particularly vulnerable and sometimes
use plastic bags to go in then throw the bags in an
ODA. ODAs are an indication that a proper dry toilet
is needed. </span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>A map would allow local communities to understand
the problem in their area. The inspiration from the
1854 broad street pump</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><a
href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outbreak</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Is one of mappings greatest successes.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">WatSan probably stands for Water/Sanitation</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I also stated 850 million practice Open
Defication in 10 different locations, but that was my
guesstimate.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I hope we can do this I think it will have
a strong impact.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Read details of ODA from unicef</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><a
href="https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.unicef.org/wash/files/UNICEF_Game_plan_to_end_open_defecation_2018.pdf</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Thanks</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Bob</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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