[Imports-us] [Imports] Best practices for address imports

Sun Nov 24 20:54:54 UTC 2013

Correction: My import is not failed.

-------------------------------------
Carol Kraemer
North River Geographic Systems, Inc
http://www.northrivergeographic.com
404.431.0125 cakraemer at northrivergeographic.com

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Carol Kraemer <
cakraemer at northrivergeographic.com> wrote:

> I want to address one of your comments separately from the others:
>
> >   * What is the OSM community and who does it really support since it
> >     does seem to be highly selective in who it gives the import hall
> >     pass to?
>
> I think if you really want to be constructive about this in the future,
> you need to get over your own failed import. I can sense that you're
> still grumbling about the fierce central command which is unfairly
> highly selective about who their friends are, and that you're still in
> battle mode trying to find fault with, and improve, the system, or
> others. Bury that hatchet now or you'll find it extremely hard to
> acquire a balanced and sober view.
>
> I believe I stated at the beginning of my email that I have been following
> the most recent import request coming through in the past several weeks. My
> opinion is based on what I am observing in those threads. I know it's
> easier to say that I am taking this all personally but I assure you that is
> not the case. I think I have tried to be very constructive here in many
> ways.
>
> P.S. My import is failed. Part of my data is still there and I am still
> determining if the OSM community is the right place for my local community
> mapping involvement as well as trying to pay attention and learn from the
> mailing lists and watching the guidelines for clearer instructions. I
> consider much of what has come from my import experience here to be a
> success. If I didn't want to make this a better community, I could walk
> away just share a negative experience with everyone. Instead, I'd rather
> make an effort to welcome more people to your community and hopefully be
> welcomed here as well.
>
>
> -------------------------------------
> Carol Kraemer
> North River Geographic Systems, Inc
> http://www.northrivergeographic.com
> 404.431.0125 cakraemer at northrivergeographic.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>wrote:
>
>> Carol,
>>
>>    maybe we're suffering from a trans-atlantic word defintion problem
>> here. When I say "community" I always, exclusively, mean the OSM
>> community - not "the community of people living in one house block or
>> one village or city quarter or town" or anything else.
>>
>> Everyone can of course be (or become) part of the (OSM) community. But
>> in terms like "community import" we're never meaning to say "an import
>> done by some community of people" but "an import done by the OSM
>> community".
>>
>> Maybe that was clear already, I wasn't sure.
>>
>> >   * How OSM defines a local community? Opinions have been thrown out by
>> >     individuals but this needs to be defined by the community and
>> >     clearly stated.
>>
>> This is very difficult to define and clearly state. I think that it
>> might be possible to find a "guideline" but it is likely that in the end
>> someone will have to make a call.
>>
>> >   * What does OSM define as a legitimate OSM community member? Opinions
>> >     have been thrown out by individuals but this needs to be defined by
>> >     the community and clearly stated.
>>
>> This is also difficult, although when talking about who should be
>> involved in imports we could simply say that you need so and so much
>> time with OSM and so and so many 1000 manual edits before you can
>> participate in an import, without telling those that don't meet the
>> criteria that they are "not legitimate community members".
>>
>> >   * If local community mappers (GIS, OSM, etc...) make a decision to add
>> >     data to their map
>>
>> Compare to what I said above - only the local OSM mappers can make a
>> decision to add data to OSM. Members of other local communities who are
>> not OSM community members might add data to "their" map at liberty, but
>> "their" map is not the OSM map.
>>
>> You don't have a claim to OSM just because you live in a place or do GIS
>> in a place - you can only have a claim to OSM if you participate in OSM.
>>
>> >     how much influence does OSM really want to have
>> >     on what is considered correct use of OSM for that local community
>>
>> We had that discussion a lot in the past. To a certain degree, I think
>> the project should allow local people to shoot themselves in the foot,
>> make mistakes, learn from them, etc., however if a local group somewhere
>> makes a decision that is considered harmful and where others elsewhere
>> have already experienced the negative consequences, I think the locals
>> should at least be able to demonstrate why their case is going to be
>> different.
>>
>> I think it also makes a difference just how local the group is and how
>> much data we're talking about - remember that we don't yet have local
>> databases. If a local group were setting up their own OSM-cloned
>> database of course they could do whatever they wanted. In the distant
>> future, we might indeed get there - OSM as a cluster of linked local
>> databases where local people make their own decisions.
>>
>> Btw. this also works the other way round - not only "how much can OSM as
>> a global project dictate to a national/local OSM community" but also (we
>> had that too) "how much can the OSM community in one country dictate to
>> regional groups in that country" (e.g. countries with culturally
>> disjunct areas where people would like to make their own decisions).
>>
>> >   * What is the OSM community and who does it really support since it
>> >     does seem to be highly selective in who it gives the import hall
>> >     pass to?
>>
>> I think if you really want to be constructive about this in the future,
>> you need to get over your own failed import. I can sense that you're
>> still grumbling about the fierce central command which is unfairly
>> highly selective about who their friends are, and that you're still in
>> battle mode trying to find fault with, and improve, the system, or
>> others. Bury that hatchet now or you'll find it extremely hard to
>> acquire a balanced and sober view.
>>
>> >     if the OSM admins determine
>> >     that imports should not be done by anyone, then say so. It will save
>> >     us all a lot of "heartache and rejection."
>>
>> I think that imports are mostly undesirable but at the same time
>> inevitable. Much like a country can't win a "war on drugs", the OSM
>> admins could never win a "war on imports" even if they declared it. Just
>> as drugs can be good but aren't in the wrong hands, so are imports. What
>> we need to do is make it clear to people that a life without imports is
>> possible, but if they decide to do imports nonetheless, at least make
>> sure they're not ruining it for themselves and everyone around.
>>
>> >   * Providing examples of the kind of data sets that would be considered
>> >     as valuable additions to the main map and which would not be
>> >     considered appropriate for the main map.
>>
>> I think a much bigger and more rewarding issue would be to demonstrate
>> clearly to people that data doesn't have to be in OSM in order to be
>> used/useful.
>>
>> What we currently have is someone playing with OSM, finding out how
>> great and easy it is to have access to pre-rendered tiles and Overpass
>> API database requests and easy planet file downloads and whatnot. Then
>> they find that their county lacks building outlines. Then they find the
>> building shape file on their county's GIS web site. And the first thing
>> they ask is: HOW DO I GET THIS INTO OSM? - When indeed all they want is
>> a convenient slippy map that shows OSM data plus the county GIS building
>> outlines (or so).
>>
>> And currently they're right - dumping anything into OSM is often an easy
>> way to make it accessible in the form you want to access it. If we
>> managed to work on that front - to provide easy tools for people to e.g.
>> throw a shape file onto OSM and make both visible together without
>> importing - then the whole import question would lose much of its urgency.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
>
>
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