[Imports] Import Plan for Buildings & Address in Washington, DC, USA

[Serge Wroclawski]

David,

Thank you for your straightforward answer. Mikel and Alex have pointed
out that you're getting flak for a situation that you are not involved
in. I think that's a fair crititism and so I want to help contexualize
the situation.

A while ago we had the NYC building and address import proposed. This
was a pretty revolutionary import and in many ways represented some
real steps forward for OSM and imports, which I was very pleased
about.

Instead of using mechanized tools to import addresses and buildings
(like has been done before), there was a decision to use human beings
augmented with high quality tools. It was a refinement of the work
done in Seattle[1]. The Seattle import took an enormous effort but has
been extremely positive for the community there and for OSM. It's been
a huge success in my view, thanks to the work of the local there.

The difference between NYC and Seattle's import is that we (NYC folks)
thought that the work would be done by locals. Community organizers
planned import events and tried to get the word out, etc. But what we
soon found was that there were paid digitizers from overseas[1] doing
the work. The problem was that there's an issue of incentive. They're
paid to work, so they worked as fast as possible, not taking the time
that someone here in the city would, or even a normal OSM mapper
would. We're talking tens of thousands of objects an hour.

Then the mappers would simply not respond to messages. If there was a
problem, it was ignored, and they'd continue. Eventually the DWG had
to get involved because the situation was so bad. It was awful for
everyone involved- absolutely everyone.

We had to have a number of meetings about it, with local community
members and also Mapbox folks, we had to hammer out agreements- it was
really not the way these things should be. Many of us (myself
included) felt that Mapbox was not being forthcoming about their
plans, it was never an out and out falsehood, it was always "the stuff
between the lines".

And the effect on NYC has been that the local community has been
pretty deflated. We used to have meetings with people who'd come out
and map, and that's really died down. It's really a shame.

For the DC import- I personally connected to it because I'm one of the
people that messed up the first import. I'm part of the reason there
are so many bad sidewalks everywhere, and (before I deleted them), I'd
imported all the trash cans. It was a mess.

I'm not a local anymore (I left DC after living there 16 years
(1996-2012) but I want to see the DC import go well. I think it's
really important, and I want to avoid the pitfalls we've had in the
previous imports.

I hope that clarifies the situation and I hope you understand that
this context is why so many of us are so impassioned and maybe a bit
bunt to the point of gruffness.

- Serge

[1] Please no one complain that there are actually no "seas" between
here and Brazil.


On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 8:47 AM, David Jackson (OCTO)
<davidy.jackson at dc.gov> wrote:
> Serge,
>
> What I meant when I stated '[ There is no money being exchanged for work on
> this project.]" is that no money is or will be exchanged specifically for
> this project.   Yes, people are paid as part of their normal job, but there
> are no specific contracts for this project.
>
> I changed the Wiki to read  "Work will be performed primarily by DC GIS
> employees which includes paid summer interns. No paid contracts specifically
> for this import project have been issued or will be issued."
>
> The DC GIS interns are IT savvy and are being trained solidly on the import
> procedures.   Furthermore, the interns live in the jurisdiction (DC) where
> the data is being imported.  This is their hometown.
>
> David
>
> David Jackson   |  GIS Analyst  |  Office of the Chief technology Officer
> (W) 202.724.5135  |  200 I ST SE,  5TH FL,  Washington, DC
> davidy.jackson at dc.gov |   Blog:  dcaddresscoordinates.blogspot.com
> Telework Day: Fri
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski <emacsen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Alex Barth <alex at mapbox.com> wrote:
>> > From the Mapbox team, I myself and my colleague Aaron have been in touch
>> > with David Jackson from DC/OCTO who's leading the import to help him
>> > work
>> > through setting up tools, so has Mikel who is not affiliated with
>> > Mapbox.
>> > Brian DeRocher and Steven Johnson (also not affiliated with Mapbox) have
>> > offered to provide training.
>>
>> I'm glad that you responded to the criticism about not engaging the
>> local community by reaching out to the local community- that's
>> excellent news.
>>
>> > What's exciting about this project is that DC government is engaging
>> > first
>> > hand. Young people will learn about OpenStreetMap hands on, and they'll
>> > even
>> > get some cash for it - and this is all part of working for their city!
>> > That's awesome and I'll continue to support that. Mapbox isn't planning
>> > right now to do any of the upload or map review work.
>>
>> I'm very confused about this. I thought that David said no money would
>> exchange hands.
>>
>> When we say "Is anyone being paid?" we mean "Is anyone being paid?". I
>> feel that there is a great deal of honesty missing here, which also
>> sends me a message of lack of respect. I'm glad that it's being
>> explained now, but I why has getting the answer about money been like
>> pulling teeth?
>>
>> I personally have concerns about these interns because they will be
>> coming new into OSM  (ie they are not OSM community members) and they
>> will have the same bad incentives that we've seen in the past with
>> paid mappers. Frederik has suggested some ways of addressing the
>> concerns- I'm interested to see what you and David's responses are to
>> those suggestions.
>>
>> - Serge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Imports mailing list
>> Imports at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>
>