[Imports] Import Plan for Buildings & Address in Washington, DC, USA

Tue Jul 15 21:35:32 UTC 2014

 Mikel,

We are having a discussion regarding the import. I have heard from
several people off the list that they are intimidated about this
process, probably because of mails like yours which use a tone of
authority and use intimidation as a means of getting your way (ie you
want me to shut up).

Simply put, your mail is actually inappropriate on a number of levels.
As for repeating pattern- you seem to have a problem with anything I
do. I'm disappointed that you are unable to be participatory in a
positive way, but giving people orders with a hint of vague threat is
simply not an acceptable way to communicate with people in the
project.

- Serge

On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Mikel Maron <mikel.maron at gmail.com> wrote:
> Serge
>
> This isn't passion or gruffness, but simply inappropriate. Stop the
> demonizing crusade against MapBox. There's at least three sides to every
> story. We've heard this before several times from you before on numerous
> threads. Time to move on.
>
> Sincerely
> -Mikel
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 9:12 AM, Serge Wroclawski <emacsen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> David,
>
> Thank you for your straightforward answer. Mikel and Alex have pointed
> out that you're getting flak for a situation that you are not involved
> in. I think that's a fair crititism and so I want to help contexualize
> the situation.
>
> A while ago we had the NYC building and address import proposed. This
> was a pretty revolutionary import and in many ways represented some
> real steps forward for OSM and imports, which I was very pleased
> about.
>
> Instead of using mechanized tools to import addresses and buildings
> (like has been done before), there was a decision to use human beings
> augmented with high quality tools. It was a refinement of the work
> done in Seattle[1]. The Seattle import took an enormous effort but has
> been extremely positive for the community there and for OSM. It's been
> a huge success in my view, thanks to the work of the local there.
>
> The difference between NYC and Seattle's import is that we (NYC folks)
> thought that the work would be done by locals. Community organizers
> planned import events and tried to get the word out, etc. But what we
> soon found was that there were paid digitizers from overseas[1] doing
> the work. The problem was that there's an issue of incentive. They're
> paid to work, so they worked as fast as possible, not taking the time
> that someone here in the city would, or even a normal OSM mapper
> would. We're talking tens of thousands of objects an hour.
>
> Then the mappers would simply not respond to messages. If there was a
> problem, it was ignored, and they'd continue. Eventually the DWG had
> to get involved because the situation was so bad. It was awful for
> everyone involved- absolutely everyone.
>
> We had to have a number of meetings about it, with local community
> members and also Mapbox folks, we had to hammer out agreements- it was
> really not the way these things should be. Many of us (myself
> included) felt that Mapbox was not being forthcoming about their
> plans, it was never an out and out falsehood, it was always "the stuff
> between the lines".
>
> And the effect on NYC has been that the local community has been
> pretty deflated. We used to have meetings with people who'd come out
> and map, and that's really died down. It's really a shame.
>
> For the DC import- I personally connected to it because I'm one of the
> people that messed up the first import. I'm part of the reason there
> are so many bad sidewalks everywhere, and (before I deleted them), I'd
> imported all the trash cans. It was a mess.
>
> I'm not a local anymore (I left DC after living there 16 years
> (1996-2012) but I want to see the DC import go well. I think it's
> really important, and I want to avoid the pitfalls we've had in the
> previous imports.
>
> I hope that clarifies the situation and I hope you understand that
> this context is why so many of us are so impassioned and maybe a bit
> bunt to the point of gruffness.
>
> - Serge
>
> [1] Please no one complain that there are actually no "seas" between
> here and Brazil.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 8:47 AM, David Jackson (OCTO)
> <davidy.jackson at dc.gov> wrote:
>> Serge,
>>
>> What I meant when I stated '[ There is no money being exchanged for work
>> on
>> this project.]" is that no money is or will be exchanged specifically for
>> this project.  Yes, people are paid as part of their normal job, but there
>> are no specific contracts for this project.
>>
>> I changed the Wiki to read  "Work will be performed primarily by DC GIS
>> employees which includes paid summer interns. No paid contracts
>> specifically
>> for this import project have been issued or will be issued."
>>
>> The DC GIS interns are IT savvy and are being trained solidly on the
>> import
>> procedures.  Furthermore, the interns live in the jurisdiction (DC) where
>> the data is being imported.  This is their hometown.
>>
>> David
>>
>> David Jackson  |  GIS Analyst  |  Office of the Chief technology Officer
>> (W) 202.724.5135  |  200 I ST SE,  5TH FL,  Washington, DC
>> davidy.jackson at dc.gov |  Blog:  dcaddresscoordinates.blogspot.com
>> Telework Day: Fri
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Serge Wroclawski <emacsen at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Alex Barth <alex at mapbox.com> wrote:
>>> > From the Mapbox team, I myself and my colleague Aaron have been in
>>> > touch
>>> > with David Jackson from DC/OCTO who's leading the import to help him
>>> > work
>>> > through setting up tools, so has Mikel who is not affiliated with
>>> > Mapbox.
>>> > Brian DeRocher and Steven Johnson (also not affiliated with Mapbox)
>>> > have
>>> > offered to provide training.
>>>
>>> I'm glad that you responded to the criticism about not engaging the
>>> local community by reaching out to the local community- that's
>>> excellent news.
>>>
>>> > What's exciting about this project is that DC government is engaging
>>> > first
>>> > hand. Young people will learn about OpenStreetMap hands on, and they'll
>>> > even
>>> > get some cash for it - and this is all part of working for their city!
>>> > That's awesome and I'll continue to support that. Mapbox isn't planning
>>> > right now to do any of the upload or map review work.
>>>
>>> I'm very confused about this. I thought that David said no money would
>>> exchange hands.
>>>
>>> When we say "Is anyone being paid?" we mean "Is anyone being paid?". I
>>> feel that there is a great deal of honesty missing here, which also
>>> sends me a message of lack of respect. I'm glad that it's being
>>> explained now, but I why has getting the answer about money been like
>>> pulling teeth?
>>>
>>> I personally have concerns about these interns because they will be
>>> coming new into OSM  (ie they are not OSM community members) and they
>>> will have the same bad incentives that we've seen in the past with
>>> paid mappers. Frederik has suggested some ways of addressing the
>>> concerns- I'm interested to see what you and David's responses are to
>>> those suggestions.
>>>
>>> - Serge
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Imports mailing list
>>> Imports at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>>
>>
>
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