[Imports] Worldwide fuel stations import, 59k objects

[Tommy Bruce]

To be fair I think it is important that importa are a little difficult. The review process should take some legwork. And steering new mappers away from imports is a good idea. Imports can really screw up the map when they are done wrong. Making mappers create wiki pages and contact other mappers first makes sure they are experienced with OSM and the community, but also gives time for people to point out problems. A perfect example would be importing parcel boundaries. A new mappers might look at the map and think hey we should import parcel boundaries and label them boundary level 10 or something. Any experienced mapper knows that the OSM community has decided against importing parcel boundaries. But if they missed that along the way it would hopefully be caught in the review process where people could point out OSM does not do parcel boundaries. Contacting mappers in other countries in other languages in my opinion should be the easiest part of the import. 

You can use http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc to identify who is active in the areas and contact them on open street map. Google translate is your friend. But also English is the main language online including for OSM tags so chances are they probably can figure out what you are trying to say if you write it in English. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 08:11, Ilya Zverev <ilya at zverev.info> wrote:
> 
> 08.03.2018 10:28, Frederik Ramm пишет:
>> Ilya,
>> as imports go, yours tend to be the best-planned and I appreciate that
>> you do respect our processes even in the face of adversity. I would
>> encourage you to also make them the best-documented ;)
> 
> Thanks Frederik, I'll try making a good wiki page for these. Though I'm inclined to make a single page for every POI import done with OSM Conflator, since only tags and dataset providers differ for these, and algorithms are mostly the same.
> 
>> You say that "we get updates monthly" and later that it is "impossible
>> to check each object ... afterwards each month up to eternity". Does
>> that mean that you are not planning a one-off import, but a continuous
>> data synchronisation process between the NavAds data set and OSM? If
>> that is the case, it should be said clearly and mandates a closer look.
> 
> Yes, I am receving a json file with ~300k features every month from NavAds. This import was made from the March dataset, I also have one from February. After a successful first import, I plan to update the data with new information. That's why the import sets "ref:navads" tags, for easier future conflation.
> 
>> I would like to understand more about the different parties in this game
>> and their interests. I assume that the fuel station chains pay someone
>> (Navads?) to publicize their information, and Navads in turn pays
>> someone (you? your employer?) to get this information into OSM. I'm not
>> sure, you say "I got my hands on this data set" which sounds a bit like
>> you're doing this in a hobby capacity but later you say "we".
> 
> Last year, MAPS.ME has signed some kind of a agreement with NavAds and some other SEO companies, stating that we will help them with getting their data on OpenStreetMap. You have seen the Shell stations import and a couple imports by Brandify (Walmarts and Retro Fitness gyms) in US, that were the result of this collaboration.
> 
> No money switched hands here. We — as in MAPS.ME — are doing this because it makes the map that we use richer and more useful to people, especially tourists. SEO companies do that because they are paid for it by companies.
> 
> Finally, you could say I am doing this as a hobby. Because this is not directly related to the improvement of the application, nor this in any way advertises MAPS.ME. It distracts me from work I need to be doing, that have deadlines. I just said that I could help in the past, and I am spending my time on this because I myself believe OSM should have the most up-to-date information on POIs. Craftmapping helps with that, but mappers are not everywhere, and most doesn't bother themselves with stopping at every fuel station and noting their opening hours.
> 
>> <...> Paying brands will be
>> fully covered even in areas with no mapping activity, smaller
>> independent stations and non-paying brands will only be covered in areas
>> where a mapper happened to add them >
>> Now you may reply "but nobody is keeping anyone from adding a small
>> independent fuel station" and you are right; but in letting the major
>> brands directly manage their representation on OSM you are getting one
>> step closer to making OSM unwelcoming for independent contributions
>> ("it's no use adding this single shop here, all the retail data in OSM
>> is managed by the big brands anyway").
> 
> I understand what you are getting at. I am also bothered that not all the fuel station owners know about companies like NavAds and use their services. That is not big money, so the issue is in visibility. They can use something like OnOsm or OSMyBiz for free, remembering to update the data. Or they can pay a small fee for companies like Brandify to put them on many maps, not limited to OSM. In any case they should be interested in that and looking for such opportunities. If they don't, they do not consider not being on maps an issue. Which makes the issue not theirs, but yours: you allow only 0% or 100% mapping coverage.
> 
>> I am also concerned about diversity. In other places we make big words
>> about how it is important to attract people from all walks of life, all
>> nationalities, all genders to OSM because we believe that this will make
>> the map better. But those words ring hollow if at the same time, with an
>> import like this, we're essentially replacing the voice of several
>> thousand mappers who have last edited a fuel station, by the voice of
>> one commercial data provider because we believe that their data is
>> somehow better.
> 
> Wait, no. We are not replacing anything. The import adds new POI and adds or updates a few secondary tags. It does not prevent anybody from adding more fuel stations, or changing these already mapped. And there is not a single data provider. We in MAPS.ME talked to four, and as a member of DWG you know about a dozen more, who want to add businesses on our map (which paid for being added to maps), but do not know the way. I see that the reaction is mostly "scare them away from OSM" and not "show them the correct way to manage the data here", which is what I am trying to do.
> 
>> What is diversity for, then, when in the end we will
>> always assume that commercial data is better?
> 
> Better than what? Commercial data is better than no data. Please do keep in mind that commercial data = data that is provided by business owners. Can you trust them to know where their venues are located and when do they open?
> 
>> Is diversity just for
>> mapping the parts of OSM that are of no interest to business, and for
>> everything else we won't hesitate to let our imperfect data made by all
>> these imperfect people from all walks of life, be overridden by the
>> shiny corporate data set?
> 
> Don't you think this is too much? To repeat my answer from the last SotM, if you think a hundred thousand points from a commercial provider can override and even replace a work by even a single mapper, then OSM has failed. To me this is thinking very low of mappers.
> 
> A million fuel stations would not override the work of mappers. On the contrary, these would validate and improve on that work. Take one worry off them, that a in year their mapping would go obsolete and they would need to do it again. Unlike highways and buildings, POI change often, and seeing that some of my work is looked after would make me glad.
> 
> Or is adding tags and looking for data by a commercial entity different from the same done by a local mapper? If so, how far it goes — if a business owner of 10 shops does it, is it good or bad? 1000 shops? A special employee whose job is to keep the map updated? An outside company that is provided with a list and knows all the mapping APIs? Where do you draw the line?
> 
>> Again, not something that would block this particular import, but
>> something to keep in mind. This import is one small step on the road
>> towards an explicitly non-diverse, corporate-managed OSM and we have to
>> be very careful about just how far we're prepared to go down that road
>> in return for nice data. Because after the fuel stations there will come
>> the restaurant chains, and then the hotel data sets, the retail chains,
>> and we might well look back at this import in ten year's time and say:
>> This is where the gentrification began in OSM.
> 
> Yes, fuel stations are just 1/5 of the full dataset I get from this single company. I believe that we can have millions, even tens of millions of corporate-managed points of interest if we want it. The question is, why do we oppose having the data in batches, in favour of mapping every business one by one by ourselves? Does it make our map prettier, or more useful, or does adding points from external sources diminish work of local mappers in some way?
> 
> Ilya
> 
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