[Imports] Oahu, Hawaii CDP boundaries

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Thinking this through further and re-reading the discussion and key=place
wiki (with apologies for the stream of consciousness), I think I'd propose
the following (3 times a charm?) which should be consistent with OSM
guidelines and on the ground reality:

Honolulu County = admin level 6
Neighborhood boards = admin level 10

There would be no admin relations between 6 and 10, and all the
neighborhood boards would be nested relations directly within the county
with no levels in between.

Honolulu would have its boundary=administrative and admin_level=8 removed,
its polygon fixed to be consistent with real-world usage, and tagged simply
as place=city (with outline and place node at the urban center).
Other similar places with clear boundaries would get place=town.or
place=city as appropriate.  Also, none of these areas would use the
boundary tag since they don't meet the description of any of the current
boundary= options.

I briefly considered the idea of having the aforementioned place boundaries
be nested boundaries within the place=island boundary for Oahu, but this
doesn't work due to the existence of slightly off-shore islands such as
Sand Island or Ford Island which are connected by bridges..

-Brian

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:56 PM stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:

> Max says:
> > It may make sense to tag the boundaries as place=neighborhood or
> something
> > like that.
>
> Please, gentlemen and gentle readership of Imports List, let us tag
> correctly.  The place=neighbourhood tag (please note the "u" as this tag
> value uses British English) is used for places WITHIN a larger place (like
> a quarter or suburb which itself is within a city) or WITHIN a smaller
> place (like a town or a village).  It may very well be that partly because
> Honolulu-Oahu as a consolidated city-county (CCC) simply "contains and
> surrounds" anything within them that it might be tagged
> place=neighbourhood, so that would be a correct tag.  But if it exists, I
> would want any more-structured, finely-granulated hierarchy to be
> preserved.  For example, if it were proper to characterize a sub-area of
> Honolulu-Oahu as a town (maybe, maybe not), a neighborhood that is truly
> within that town should "aggregate with" the town.  But if it is a
> neighborhood which doesn't associate with a smaller (than city or county)
> entity (like a town or village), but rather Honolulu or Oahu itself, then
> THAT "hierarchical association" should be denoted properly in the tagging.
> This might cause, even force a choice to select place=suburb or
> place=quarter as opposed to place=neighbourhood.  Please see the relevant
> wiki, as this tagging can have subtleties that are difficult to describe,
> yet when they are understood, they can logically map quite well onto a
> particular urban conurbation with a characteristic "Aha!" moment as you
> realize this.  I expect Honolulu-Oahu, with about a million people, has
> some of this complexity, and I'd like to see it correctly captured as OSM
> better tags these.  That is why we have different tags of suburb, quarter
> and neighborhood.
>
> Max says:
> > It would depend on whether they have a firm enough meaning to locals or
> > whether they are statistical conveniences.
>
> Very much "Yes" to the first part, although if by "statistical" you mean
> CDPs (they ARE statistical), then please use boundary=census (if that's
> what the boundary is as you enter those data).  I agree it's PART how
> "firm" a sense of place is to locals, but it's PRIMARILY about selecting
> the most correct value of place=*.  Maybe it's suburb, maybe it's quarter,
> maybe it's neighborhood, but these have subtle differences.  Getting them
> right so they convey whatever sense of hierarchy there is in the real world
> is important.
>
> Max continues:
> > (obviously the places are meaningful to locals, I'm talking about the
> exact
> > boundaries)
>
> Again, should you have and enter exact CDP boundaries (a somewhat
> contradictory statement, as they are statistical, and can't really ever be
> "exact" as they are always slightly changing) it's OK to enter them tagged
> boundary=census, but never with an admin_level tag.  I'll say it one more
> time, a very good place to start (and maybe best in the long-term, almost
> certainly best in the short-term) is a NODE tagged place=*.  This should be
> either centered in the spheroid it roughly defines, or placed at or very
> near a "center" which, for example, might be the commercial area of a
> village (however small it may be).
>
> While Brian says:
> > Being an extinct volcano, the boundaries are usually defined by rather
> > dramatic topographical features.  But yet there are some CDPs (Kaneohe
> > Station) that are as you say statistical conveniences used locally.
> That's
> > why I'm leaning towards using the postal service's boundaries as level 8
> > admin boundaries and CDPs as neighborhoods where they match reality on
> the
> > ground.
>
> Please don't use postal service boundaries in OSM unless they are
> explicitly tagged boundary=postal_code.  This is done in Germany in Belgium
> but not the USA (or if it is, it shouldn't be, in my strong opinion).  In
> this instance (in the USA) I believe it is better to use a node with a
> place=* tag and its proper value.
>
> > For eample, if you look at the leeward (west) coast of Oahu, the
> entirecoast north of Ko'olina uses "WAIANAE, HI" for its postal address, and
> > there are multiple CDPs (e.g. Nanakuli, Ma'ili, Makaha) that are
> > essentially neighborhoods, but with boundaries well defined
> topographically
> > by parallel rivers and ridges running from the mountains down to the
> > coast.  But then there are oddballs like you have a "Makaha" CDP and a
> > "Makaha Valley" CDP just up-valley that in real usage, is one
> neighborhood
> > just called "Makaha"
>
> OSM in the USA doesn't really map postal addresses, as noted above,
> although I agree that sometimes the name of a post office can offer a sense
> of place-name to an area.  In that case, please use a node with a place=*
> tag and its proper value.  CDPs must be tagged boundary=census, not
> boundary=administrative and should not have an admin_level tag with any
> value whatsoever.  It is OK to enter these, but in my opinion, it would be
> better to supersede these (you COULD enter both, but that's slightly
> confusing to many) with nodes with place=* tags and proper values.  If the
> proper value for the areas you are talking about here really meet OSM's
> definition of place=neighbourhood, then please use that tag.  Be respectful
> of what higher-in-the-hierarchy entity (town, city, county...) they
> subordinate to as you do so, please.  And if they don't subordinate like
> this, then place=neighbourhood isn't really the correct tag.  Maybe
> place=village or place=hamlet is a better tag on that node.
>
> Brian continues:
> > Oh, and the whole shebang is contained within Honolulu County which has a
> > county mayor and is administered by the government entity "City and
> County
> > of Honolulu".
> >
> > Hence I am thinking, for example:
> > Honolulu County = admin boundary level 6
> > Waianae (all of zip code 96792) = admin boundary 8
> > Makaha+Makaha Valley CDPs = place=neighborhood boundary, perhaps with or
> > without a level 10 admin boundary.
>
> Yes, to Honolulu County and admin_level=6; this already exists in OSM as
> the aforementioned relation/3861844 (properly, in my opinion, with a node
> tagged admin_centre and a node tagged label).  But, its coterminous
> Honolulu relation does need to be entered (as Honolulu is a CCC), and the
> existing Honolulu (messy, incorrect, old) polygon (tagged boundary=census)
> needs to be removed, or at a minimum must have its admin_level=8 tagged
> removed, as this does not belong on a boundary=census polygon.  This is
> also a weird multipolygon as it only contains one member, if it must
> persist in OSM, de-multipolygonize it by making it a properly tagged
> polygon, please.
>
> No, to Waianea as admin_level=8, as that clashes with Honolulu, which
> should be entered as a coterminous relation to 3861844, but tagged
> admin_level=8 and "City of Honolulu" (distinct from County of Oahu) in its
> name=* tag(s).  Waianea can be entered (in order of preference) either as a
> node tagged place=[town, village, hamlet, isolated_dwelling], a node or
> (multi)polygon tagged place=[suburb, quarter, neighborhood], though please
> have it clear in your mind — or even a note=* tag — what it subordinates
> to, or as a boundary=census (multi)polygon containing NO admin_level tag.
> ONLY if there is a formal political structure, like an elected neighborhood
> council, should boundary=administrative be used on something like Waianea
> (with a corresponding tag of admin_level=10, or 9, if there are two of
> these, one at a higher level of the hierarchy).
>
> It seems complicated.  Yet I know and feel the effectiveness at having
> tagged with these conventions for years, largely because I have read and
> understood ALL of our place=* wikis.  (There are quite a few of them).
> Please absorb this knowledge and let it guide your tagging in Oahu.  Our
> beautiful map will be better for it, more comprehensively conveying to all
> who follow its guidelines, how particular Hawaiian places are named,
> properly.
>
> SteveA
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