[OSM-legal-talk] ODbL: Produced Works other than maps

[Arne Johannessen]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Arne Johannessen wrote:
>>
>> Note that just rendering the OSM database in PNG format doesn't
>> necessarily create a Produced Work.
>
> We have to be careful about the definition of "database" here.  
> According
> to the legal definition of "database" which has been quoted here often
> enough, any PNG file made from OSM data would qualify as a database,
> which would render the whole concept of a "Produced Work" totally
> useless for OSM.

Right. I, too, have been struggling for a while with the Produced Work  
definition. Eventually I considered section 4.4 (c) ODBL and came to  
reconcile myself to neglect the difference because it seems not to be  
relevant in most practical cases.


> Thus we have agreed that we are willing to consider a PNG file to be a
> Produced Work unless - and I don't find the specific wording on the  
> Wiki
> right now but I think there was something like this - someone creates
> the file specially with the purpose of transporting the database  
> through
> it.

Ah, thanks -- the community guidelines had escaped me.

Hm, re-reading the Produced Work guideline I have to say my joy is  
less than full. :) It seems to not satisfy the 'principle of legal  
clarity' (?? -- "Normenklarheit"), as it shouldn't be hard to create a  
PNG or SVG image that is both fit and 'intended for the extraction of  
the original data,' without the image necessarily looking like it. It  
might be kind of difficult to infer the creator's state of mind from  
just looking at the image (or even its source, for that matter)...

Of course, the advantage is the language's conciseness makes it easy  
to apply by those who want to reuse the database, for better or worse.


> In that light, I fail to see the difference between a PNG image that
> represents a list of bakeries in London (which you and Andy would say
> clearly is a derived database or a substantial excerpt) and a PNG  
> image
> with a map of London and little bread symbols where there's a bakery
> (which we do not want to be a derived database nor a substantial
> excerpt,

Again, the distribution format you choose has no influence at all on  
the database right issues involved.

How many bakeries are there in London? Without bothering to count, I'd  
say Greater London surely has a lot more than 100, while The City  
probably has less. (A hundred is the limit for 'not Substantial'  
according to the community guideline for the meaning of Substantial.)

If we're talking a Significant portion here, it definitely is a  
Derived Database in both cases (list and PNG). If we're talking a  
portion being not Significant, neither the ODBL nor the EU directive  
restrict your rights and you are free to do whatever you like with the  
database excerpts anyway.


> or else the whole ODbL Produced Works idea would fall over and
> be useless

So far I have yet to discover its actual use. Pointers are  
appreciated. :)

I mean, I can imagine cases where the spatial data content of a  
derived work isn't really significant. I have a tea box in my kitchen  
that has a nautical chart printed on its outside, overlaid with  
reproduced paintings of major lighthouses. The map is just in the  
background, used for illustration if you like, not for spatial  
orientation.

This is what the Produced Work thing might have meant: Cases where the  
database's contents appear outside the database theme's domain.

Another possible example might be a CG movie flying through a virtual  
3D version of London, generated exclusively from OSM. The movie  
clearly isn't a database, as its geospatial content elements aren't  
individually accessible, yet it clearly has been derived from a  
substantial portion of OSM. I think the ODBL would require the 3rd  
dimension (the altitude information not currently present in OSM) to  
be released share-alike in this case (under section 4.2).


> - for example we could not mix our map with data licensed
> under another license).

Wouldn't that be more a case of a Collective Database?

Cheers,
Arne

-- 
Arne Johannessen