[OSM-legal-talk] I want my access back

ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.gremmen at cetest.nl
Thu Aug 11 08:38:46 BST 2011

The discussion is not about comparing to google or Wikimapia CT.
It's not because one is bad the other should be bad alike.
is about not trusting (and thus assuring by a CT) your OSM contributors,
and about not trusting the users (by using a unnecessary restrictive
compared to PD) that they will use the data.
It's about a new way of thinking that I believe should go with open

It's the necessity of a license that has never been discussed about.
The need for a license has always been granted, and the discussion
only is about what license.

The most thorough argument has been argument has about 
attribution that might me forgotten ( my god, how many times
does (y)our ego need to be attributed to be satisfied)
and some control freaks shouting "I do not want google to steal our
which is complete nonsense. They already steal our data, and apologise
only when discovered. Like we steal their data in a very unsystematic
and fragmented way  (user by user , street by street , poi by poi.). 

Yes Henk, examples do not have a direct relation, they are examples only
no need to ask what the relation is, if you do not understand it, just
ignore, others do.

CC-BY-SA is well known, respected (due to the earlier), and their newest
includes support for data(bases) (that what I was told). OdBL is new,
and there is no reason OSM should be the first to explore a uncertain
Using a wellknown and respected system enhances it's validity and
reduces the amount
of specialists that are needed to interpret it's meaning.
(But I still prefer a full CC0 or PD license situation)

The  chances of a CC-BY-SA being challenged in court are indeed much
less, I believe.

I do not know the story about the 10 virgins. May be it's like
OdBL, new and unknown ? 

The OSMF is preparing actions ?   What actions ? That is an empty phrase


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Henk Hoff [mailto:osm at toffehoff.nl] 
Verzonden: Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:51 AM
Aan: Licensing and other legal discussions.
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] I want my access back

Op 10-08-11 12:33, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen schreef:
> To all
> It's all a matter of trust.
> A) Trusting contributors and
> b) trusting the users of OSM data.
> The current policy of OSM is to trust nobody,
> and therefore OSM(F) is seeking legal certainty,
> by creating licenses and contributor terms.
Have you actually *read* the CT?
Trust nobody? The OSMF asks of its contributors that they only 
contribute stuf which they are allowed to. The OSMF promises that the 
collective will always be published with a free and open license.

Just for fun: try reading the Terms of Service of Google, to which you 
agree every time you use one of its services.
> It will probably take a long time for those
> seeking this way that it is a way without issue.
> First because legal certainty does not exist in
> a society where justice is dominated by (financial) power.
> ( see Dominique Strauss Kahn case for a recent example )
What has this to do with OSM?
> Second because the legal certainty created by
> the CT is uncertain because it is badly written, and one needs not be
> a specialist to understand that; and the use of OdBl is so
> that we are completely unclear if it will hold in ANY case but the
> simplest.
Do you claim that CC-BY-SA does not need a specialist to understand it?
> Third because we don't not have the financial means to maintain
> the license in even the smallest case.
Like mentioned before, we're not maintaining the license. ODbL is 
maintained by Open Data Commons, whereas the CC is maintained by 
Creative Commons. Not the OSMF.
> OSMF will probably go bankrupt on the first case against an
> fraudulent user of the data.
Are you suggesting that with sticking with CC-BY-SA we don't have such a

problem? (if we have it at all)

> You ever read the story of the emperor's new clothes ? (=read CT)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes
I know the story. However, another story comes to mind with me. Ever 
read the parable of the ten virgins? It's about being prepared for 
what's coming.
The OSMF is taking actions needed to keep the project running for years 
to come.
> Gert

Oh, wait a minute...   In a previous message you made it perfectly clear

you don't trust me.... Why am I even replying ....

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