[OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads

[James Ewen]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk> wrote:

> You might disagree, but you are also wrong. OSM is a database, not a
> map. It is very important to get features tagged correctly from the
> start. If you don't do it from the beginning, someone else will have
> to come back, notice the error and correct what you've done. That's a
> complete waste of your time, so why participate in the OSM at all?

In this vein then, why are we tagging the roads incorrectly in North
America? In Canada we do not have a "Motorway" designation, yet there
are many thousands of miles of "Freeway", or "Limited Access Highway"
tagged incorrectly. There's no tag for business frontage roads, those
are mostly tagged as service, but service also is what we have to use
for alleys, a totally different type and class of roadway.

If we get to the point where anyone adding data to the OSM database
has to become an expert at every feature before they can tag it, then
we will lose most of our support.

I have tracked thousands of miles of highways in British Columbia,
Alberta, and Saskatchewan in the past few years. I converted them to
ways, and tagged them as to the type of road, and in the case of major
highways, with a reference number, and a name. I didn't put in surface
type, number of lanes, what province/county it was in, maximum speed
limit, plus a whole host of other details.

Since someone else could add in more detail to what I have done,
according to your standards, I should not have bothered entering the
data that I collected. Should I go back and rip up all the traces that
I have added because they are not completely tagged?

OSM is about group participation. Each participant brings what he/she
can to the table, and helps out to the best of their ability/desires.
This is a volunteer organization, and as with any volunteer
organization, you gratefully accept the assistance you get. You can
coach and mentor those who are contributing to enhance their skills,
and increase the value of the work they bring to the project, and you
can politely ask those who damage or destroy information to leave. You
can not demand things of volunteers, it just doesn't work that way.

>> don't create "accurate" tags for everything. It's better to use
>> approximations than nothing. Otherwise mapping for OSM will be
>> reserved to a very limited amount of experts, surely very proud about
>> themselves.
>
> What's the point of mocking experts, rather than listening to them?

I don't think Pieren was mocking the experts... but rather merely
pointing out that we all don't need to be experts to be able to add
some value to the OSM project. What's the point of telling volunteers
to not participate if they aren't going to do everything perfectly?

One of the threads recently was about using OSM to allow volunteers to
go out into their neighborhood and mark the location of a tree for
later identification by an expert. In my area, we have issues with
Dutch Elm disease. Any dead wood on an Elm tree needs to be removed to
keep the tree healthy. In my front yard, I have what I thought was an
Elm tree when I moved in. Later on, I was informed that it was not an
Elm, but rather a Green Ash... I guess according to your criteria,  I
couldn't mark this tree, because I didn't know the species... The OSM
project could easily be used to mark tree locations for identification
and maintenance, and it can be done without having to be an expert
botanist.

We need to encourage those that are interested in participating to do
just that, and to mentor and educate those who are interested and
willing to learn, creating better cartographers in the process.

Just about anyone with no expertise in cartography can collect GPS
traces and upload them, or mark the location of a local mailbox, or
the local drug store.

Think of this as an apprenticeship. One Journeyman carpenter with 3
people pulled off the street can frame a house faster than trying to
do it himself. It will take a bit of work for the Journeyman at first,
teaching the basics, but after a little while, those 3 newbies will
start to catch on, and be able to pound nails into the right places by
themselves. With enough instruction and encouragement, they too might
one day be a Journeyman on their own project.

Apprenitces need guidance, training and encouragement... yes,
sometimes we might have to tear down a wall that got put together
wrong, but that should be used as a place to explain where the
problems occurred, and how to build it right. It's not a time to say
"You screwed up the whole house, get out of here!"

The OSM project needs to accept the help that it receives from those
that participate, no matter what their skill level. Yes, it can mean
others needing to add more detail in the future, but that's what OSM
is all about... it's a community effort.

James
VE6SRV