[OSM-newbies] cycle map rendering

[Thomas Meller]

> A map with everything on looks like a bollocks. The art of cartography
> is knowing what to include, and what not to. So when you say

 > > Interpretation of the map is the map-user's job.
 > > No-one else's decision or resposibility.

> then I disagree absolutely. It's the cartographer's job to present an
> attractive set of information.

Richard, you're right.
And maybe I did not say it loud enough: the cycle map is awkward.
It's my favourite.
That's why I find it a pity that it is not usable for non-motor traffic.

> It's not really usable _for_ _you_. For me and for many others it's
> great. That's not to say I'm right and you're wrong, of course, but
> neither is it to say that you're right and I'm wrong.
> <...>
> Again, no. The main problem _for_ _you_; not necessarily for others. Not
> for me, for example, because UK mappers don't generally use highway=path.

OK, so we're on cultural boundaries again.
:-I

> (I mean, what is this 'designated' shit?)

<g> agree to that, either
this nomenclature is simply too abstract
But that does not mean that highway=path is a mess.

> , and so the render rules are going to have to be
> really complex to cope with the many possibilities.

Ok, then let me ask a real newbie question: isn't it possible to make the rendering zoom-dependant?
Most electronic maps are. Isn't mapnik capable to do this?

As Akkana Peck's post shows, the topographic map is good for a lot of things, but not for cycling.
<eg>
Yes, that's exactly what I think.
The topographic information would be a great help for anyone in need for hints about steepness.
That is, for a hiker, for handicapped, for aged people, for bikers, for hgv-drivers.
The map, in it's current state, is of use for hgv-drivers.
And I don't think it's used by professionals in its current state.

Again: pity
Using a topographic map in flat land only does not seem fit to me.
Is the cycle map only made for the UK?

> If it were me I'd be tempted to say "well, I'm not going to even look at
> that until it's settled down". (It's only last week that I added

<g>
wait for 'settled down'.
<I shake my head>
I think that's no good.
Create facts.
Make a balanced decision on a half-settled bunch of tags to create a real world result from lab-use data.
In a project like this, you will never have a proper conclusion to fit everyone's needs. The art is to find a compromise.

For example 'path'.
The descriptions on wiki on this item are not bad, but the proposed use - proposed by the selection of accompanying tags - is.
A path is no footway.
A path is no cycleway.
And that is all to it. A path is a path.
And you could use tracktype=* to describe how it's built. (no joke)

For the renderer, this means, that being specific in rendering a theme map is a huge problem.
So, why do you try to do that anyway?
A path is a path. 

> CloudMade's Style Editor, Kosmos, and so on. It might not be 100%
> newbie-friendly yet, but it's getting there fast; and I hope to have
> something really cool to announce on the same subject in the next couple
> of weeks.

I hope so. I already had an odyssee to find a way to put the maps on my GPSR.
I am an experienced Computer user.
I am IT professional.
And I wonder who can use OSM functions if he's not.

I had a look at osmarender to do my share of work for the project.
But even that is complicated to follow.
There is no hint, no howto. Everything is abtract and looks really martian.

Despite for the ML, there seems to be no effort to make contributors help each other. I could write a walkthru 'how to make mapnik run on your computer' if only I new how.
(you know the LDP project and it's origin?)

I write this in a newbie section. I hope you understand why.
I do not know every aspect of the surroundings of every OSM-processes currently running. I appreciate your hint to the tiledrawer page - I didn't know it. A great idea!

> But please, enough of the "it doesn't do what I want/I don't understand
> it, so it's automatically bad". It's really, really dispiriting for
> those of us who are trying to improve the OSM toolset and keep as many
> people happy as possible.

My post was never meant to say that. If it reads so, I apologize.
I simply wanted to say 'pity' and suggest to discuss alternatives.
I will have a look for Andy's permutaion page. (if I find them)

Thanks for the discussion,
Thomas
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