[Osmf-talk] Running

Scott Neville scott07 at worldsofwar.co.uk
Thu Oct 23 23:49:12 UTC 2014

>From my outside view (I dont know what has gone on between any of you), but I would agree with your summary.  We just need to be tolerant of the fact people are different and accept that we wont all agree ever time, and then just get on with making OSM better.  As I understand it though, if we are electing board members and we dont like what they say then dont vote for them, it might be an idea to have a "none of the above" option so that dissatisfaction with all the candidates can be expressed.  If there is that much opposition to seeing Steve being elected why does somebody not run with a manifesto of "I am not Steve", I would not expect a candidate like that to win, it it does give everyone else something to think about depending on how much traction they get.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Henk Hoff" <henk.hoff at osmfoundation.org>
To: "Sarah Hoffmann" <lonvia at denofr.de>
Cc: "osmf-talk" <osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>
Sent: Friday, 24 October, 2014 12:22:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] Running

I've been silent because I'm pretty busy with work at the moment and some other stuff I need to do.

Anyways, since you asked for my response:

I'm normally a person who does not get angry or mad quickly. But Frederik (no reason to not mention his name, because you would have guessed it anyways) is one of the very few persons who has gotten me really furious.
Some examples. 
- Within 3 weeks after he got elected to the board, he accused me of making secret deals with other organisations and that I was basically betraying the Foundation. In a similar way as the rant he just did. Just because I wanted a more softer approach in a certain matter than he wanted.
- A couple of months in he complained that I was doing way too much and that other board members please take over some work from me.
- When I'd mentioned to the board that I had a conversation with a certain organisation at some conference, I get a harsh response from Frederik that I first needed to contact the board before I should be in contact with any organisation so the board could decide my mandate. 
- When I helped Steve setup the first OSMplus, I did that to keep OSMplus complementary to the OSMF so we would not end up with competing organisations. I got greeted with that I immediately needed to resign, that there was a grave conflict of interest, I was not defending the interests of the OSMF.
- Earlier this year, after I'd suggested to have an in-person board meeting in order to try to find some common ground in order to get the board in an somehow better functioning mode, I got bombarded with another rant in which Frederik proclaimed me to be the source of all evil in the board. 

To make a long list short: I felt I was constantly attacked on my integrity. And I've learned that I don't respond very well to that.
We don't need to agree on everything. The least you can do is trying to understand where we're coming from so we can work towards a solution. But when someone is holding the moral high ground, that becomes very difficult.

In order to get the board functioning in some kind of decent way, we need to work on the human factor. We all have our unique qualities. And we all want to move the project forward. Let's try to take advantage of that. 
And really, I don't think we're miles apart within the board on issues. 

I still want to put my energy in making that work. 


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Sarah Hoffmann [mailto:lonvia at denofr.de] 
Verzonden: donderdag 23 oktober 2014 22:18
Aan: Kathleen Danielson
CC: osmf-talk
Onderwerp: Re: [Osmf-talk] Running

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 09:55:30PM +0200, Kathleen Danielson wrote:
> Sarah,
> I see that I could have been clearer that what I found so 
> disrespectful was the way Frederik referred to Henk.

True, it would have been more polite to address these accusations directly at Henk. But then again, Henk has choosen to remain silent in the last two days despite being ask direct questions by three or four different people.
So, addressing him directly is a bit difficult isn't it?

I would also like to point out that when he responded he completely side- steped the accusation of not being able to work with the board members by pointing that there are local organisation commitees for the SOTM.
Maybe he avoids the issue because what Frederik says is simply an account of the facts, and if so, can it really be called disrespectful?


> I have nothing to say about Steve's decision to run, except that as we 
> still have upcoming elections, I don't know that Steve has staged or 
> accomplished any coup-d'etat. That should still be up to the 
> electorate, no? It does seem to have had some rather drastic side 
> repercussions though, and I'm terribly sorry that Simon felt he had to 
> resign as a result. (I am certain the situation is more nuanced than 
> that, but that is as much as I know, and I'm not here to pry.)
> I will absolutely agree with you and Ilya that this is now a farce.
> On Oct 23, 2014 9:42 PM, "Sarah Hoffmann" <lonvia at denofr.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 08:51:17PM +0200, Kathleen Danielson wrote:
> > > This is one of the least professional, rudest emails I have ever 
> > > seen on
> > an
> > > OSM mailing list. It is completely out of line.
> >
> > The words may have been harsh but maybe they were called for.
> >
> > Maybe we should all stop pretending that Steve Coast is the shiny 
> > role model for OSM. He may have started OSM but from his actions 
> > today I can only presume that he also wishes to end it.
> >
> > Steve has a long history of being impossible to discuss with and of 
> > personally insulting pretty much anybody who disagrees with him, so 
> > the board members have always been a natural target. You can read 
> > that up in the mailing lists. I don't have the energy right now to 
> > look through the archives for you. He has managed to wear out pretty 
> > much anybody who is a bit more deeply involved in the project and as 
> > you can read from his mails, he is well aware of it. So the only 
> > thing he could achieve by standing for the board is to cause the 
> > shitstorm that has indeed ensured. Meanwhile, he puts himself into 
> > the spotlight as the one who comes to the rescue. Unfortunately, it 
> > always works because there are always new people who have only heard 
> > of him as the great founder and not yet experienced his vicious attacks.
> >
> > I am utterly sorry that I was the one to give Steve the opening he 
> > needed to stage this coup-d'etat. I'm long enough with the project 
> > and should have known that the osmf mailinglist is not a place to be 
> > trusted. But what is done is done. Now we have lost pretty much the 
> > best chairman that could have happend to OSMF and we somehow have to 
> > deal with it.
> >
> > Or maybe you have to deal with it. I, for one, do not wish to be in 
> > a OSMF where Steve Coast is anywhere near the board, not as member, 
> > not as chairman and not even as chairmen emiratus or whatever title 
> > he has managed to invent for himself. I don't even want to be in a 
> > OSMF where he stands for board election. As Ilya stated, such as it 
> > is, it is all nothing but a farce.
> >
> > Sarah
> >
> >
> > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 7:20 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> > > <frederik at remote.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > On 10/23/2014 04:57 PM, steve at asklater.com wrote:
> > > > > No more pretending everything is wonderful.
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > I think it's a real shame that Henk wasn't supported in his 
> > > > > SOTM work this year.
> > > >
> > > > I'm surprised that you would say that. Were you present in the
> > (several)
> > > > board meetings where Henk either refused or neglected to let the 
> > > > rest
> > of
> > > > the board in on the current state of planning? We had SOTM on 
> > > > the
> > agenda
> > > > more than once and Henk certainly did not ask for help.
> > > >
> > > > I know that Henk put in lots of hours in SotM and I refrained 
> > > > from pointing a finger but if you really intend to start looking 
> > > > for what went wrong then SOTM has "Communication Failure" 
> > > > written in red, flashing letters across page one. And this 
> > > > didn't start with Buenos Aires, it is something that has always 
> > > > been there - one person at the centre not allowing anyone else 
> > > > to peek in their books. This works as long as it works but if 
> > > > that one person then becomes dragged under with other stuff, 
> > > > you've set yourself up for failure because you aren't
> > > > *allowing* other people to support you.
> > > >
> > > > I know you're a fan of Henk's. Remember the F2F dinner in Berlin 
> > > > where you said that SOTM wouldn't be going anywhere without 
> > > > Henk, and I said that's precisely the problem? Things haven't 
> > > > changed, SOTM is still a one-man show by design.
> > > >
> > > > What is a shame is not that Henk wasn't supported but that 
> > > > there's not even a setup that would let anyone give support. You 
> > > > know that
> > perfectly
> > > > well but still you write ominous lines like the ones I quoted 
> > > > above, pointing a finger at god-knows-whom (whoever it was who 
> > > > should have
> > lent
> > > > support I guess). Not pretending everything is wonderful is a 
> > > > good step ahead. Not pretending everything is someone else's 
> > > > fault would also be welcome.
> > > >
> > > > Bye
> > > > Frederik
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
> > E008°23'33"
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > osmf-talk mailing list
> > > > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> > > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > osmf-talk mailing list
> > > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >
> >

osmf-talk mailing list
osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org

osmf-talk mailing list
osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org

More information about the osmf-talk mailing list