[Osmf-talk] Proposal - OSMF Should **NOT** Adopt a Code of Conduct

Joseph Reeves iknowjoseph at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 22:56:31 UTC 2017


Hi Stefan,

Arguably this email is an example of one that would stifle someone's desire
to speak freely. I'm not saying that I would consider it falling foul of a
CoC policy, but it's not a welcoming or inviting entry to further
discussion.

The argument goes that a CoC would have a chilling effect on mailing list
discussions, but to prevent this situation people are asked to cite
specific examples to defend their feelings; you can't create a chilling
effect to protect your own perceived communication rights. In short, if
somebody states how they feel, it's not OK to insist that they provide
specific evidence for this feeling. Doing so is potentially stifling others
and creates the chilling effect you are claiming to be working against.

Look again at your email. Emily wrote:

> but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
> - some of which goes years back.

In your response you asked for specific examples that Emily has suffered:

>Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
>hostility and personal tensions?

Without doubt you will have seen hostility and personal tension on the list
over the last couple of weeks. It would be impossible not to see that. But
you've asked Emily for a specific instance relating to *her. *The point is,
the hostility and personal tension is discouraging to many people, whether
or not it was directed specifically, and personally, towards themselves.
Asking for someone to point out a specific instance that they have suffered
abuse is not OK, misses the point of Community Standards, and only
threatens to worsen the situation.

Joseph

On 3 December 2017 at 22:24, Stefan Keller <sfkeller at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Emily and Andrew
>
> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
> > - some of which goes years back.
>
> Thanks for sharing your feelings.
>
> Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
> hostility and personal tensions?
> And if yes, I'd like to see if and why any CoC would have helped.
>
> 2017-12-03 22:27 GMT+01:00 Andrew Matheny <andrewdmatheny at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > What I think is happening today is that new users sign up
> > for the mailing lists, they see what is sent back and forth,
> > and then they either disengage or unsubscribe.
>
> Can you pls. give some examples where this happened?
>
> I'm mainly aware of rather experienced mappers who habe been engaged
> in disputes (as its happening in any online community).
>
> Would'nt a netiquette have handled that - perhaps reminded by others,
> and finally by a moderator or OSMF group member?
>
> :Stefan
>
>
> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > As someone who generally doesn't participate in these mailing lists, I
> very
> > much disagree with this statement:
> > "Some people feel frightened to participate in mailing lists? Well, I
> think
> > it's very exaggerated and makes me smile in general."
> >
> > I can wholeheartedly say that YES, this is a space that I don't feel
> > comfortable participating in. It's great to see people passionate about
> OSM,
> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions - some
> of
> > which goes years back. It's easy to feel like saying something is going
> to
> > leave me feeling attacked. For me, I don't see an obvious way to
> contribute
> > and try to make this better, so YES, it is very tempting to just
> disengage.
> > I know I'm not alone in that, so I'd really encourage you to take it
> > seriously when people say that they don't feel comfortable contributing
> to
> > the mailing lists.
> >
> > To me, it seems like all the loudest voices are the ones having this
> > conversation. As someone who participates less, I can say that the
> existence
> > of a CoC (carefully drafted, with community input and caution about how
> to
> > design this well) is something that would make me feel more comfortable
> > here.
> >
> > "In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
> more
> > value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to be
> the
> > victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion of
> white
> > males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status."
> >
> > +1 to that, and thanks to Nikos for pointing it out.
> >
> > My two cents.
> > Emily
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Nikos Roussos <comzeradd at fsfe.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I have more interesting things to do in life,
> >> > like mapping for example.
> >>
> >> So you only do one interesting thing at a time? Please let's avoid
> >> undervaluing what other people may find interesting.
> >>
> >> > Any code of conduct will make people more or less autocensure. I can't
> >> > see any interest of having that thing, unless for control.
> >>
> >> If a CoC make people to auto-censor from abusive behavior I'd say it's
> >> worth it.
> >>
> >>
> >> This is a nice read on the value of a CoC in a community:
> >> http://incisive.nu/2014/codes-of-conduct/
> >>
> >> For those who don't have the time to read it all a very good argument is
> >> that "you aren’t creating a code of conduct only - or even primarily -
> for
> >> the people who are likely to break it. You’re creating it to make it
> clear
> >> to anyone who has been harmed or harassed, online or off, that your
> space is
> >> safe for them."
> >>
> >> In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
> more
> >> value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to be
> the
> >> victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion of
> white
> >> males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> osmf-talk mailing list
> >> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > osmf-talk mailing list
> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
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