[Osmf-talk] Proposal - OSMF Should **NOT** Adopt a Code of Conduct

Stefan Keller sfkeller at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 23:11:46 UTC 2017


Hi Joseph

> 2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <iknowjoseph at gmail.com>:

Now I'm feeling stifled :-(!
But it's worth to observe how "mechanisms" of a CoC would be applied -
and how this conversation is being turned ad adsurdum!

:Stefan



2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <iknowjoseph at gmail.com>:
> Hi Stefan,
>
> Arguably this email is an example of one that would stifle someone's desire
> to speak freely. I'm not saying that I would consider it falling foul of a
> CoC policy, but it's not a welcoming or inviting entry to further
> discussion.
>
> The argument goes that a CoC would have a chilling effect on mailing list
> discussions, but to prevent this situation people are asked to cite specific
> examples to defend their feelings; you can't create a chilling effect to
> protect your own perceived communication rights. In short, if somebody
> states how they feel, it's not OK to insist that they provide specific
> evidence for this feeling. Doing so is potentially stifling others and
> creates the chilling effect you are claiming to be working against.
>
> Look again at your email. Emily wrote:
>
>> but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
>> - some of which goes years back.
>
> In your response you asked for specific examples that Emily has suffered:
>
>>Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
>>hostility and personal tensions?
>
> Without doubt you will have seen hostility and personal tension on the list
> over the last couple of weeks. It would be impossible not to see that. But
> you've asked Emily for a specific instance relating to her. The point is,
> the hostility and personal tension is discouraging to many people, whether
> or not it was directed specifically, and personally, towards themselves.
> Asking for someone to point out a specific instance that they have suffered
> abuse is not OK, misses the point of Community Standards, and only threatens
> to worsen the situation.
>
> Joseph
>
> On 3 December 2017 at 22:24, Stefan Keller <sfkeller at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Emily and Andrew
>>
>> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
>> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions
>> > - some of which goes years back.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your feelings.
>>
>> Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced
>> hostility and personal tensions?
>> And if yes, I'd like to see if and why any CoC would have helped.
>>
>> 2017-12-03 22:27 GMT+01:00 Andrew Matheny <andrewdmatheny at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > What I think is happening today is that new users sign up
>> > for the mailing lists, they see what is sent back and forth,
>> > and then they either disengage or unsubscribe.
>>
>> Can you pls. give some examples where this happened?
>>
>> I'm mainly aware of rather experienced mappers who habe been engaged
>> in disputes (as its happening in any online community).
>>
>> Would'nt a netiquette have handled that - perhaps reminded by others,
>> and finally by a moderator or OSMF group member?
>>
>> :Stefan
>>
>>
>> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <emily.eros at gmail.com>:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > As someone who generally doesn't participate in these mailing lists, I
>> > very
>> > much disagree with this statement:
>> > "Some people feel frightened to participate in mailing lists? Well, I
>> > think
>> > it's very exaggerated and makes me smile in general."
>> >
>> > I can wholeheartedly say that YES, this is a space that I don't feel
>> > comfortable participating in. It's great to see people passionate about
>> > OSM,
>> > but this space feels fraught with hostility and personal tensions - some
>> > of
>> > which goes years back. It's easy to feel like saying something is going
>> > to
>> > leave me feeling attacked. For me, I don't see an obvious way to
>> > contribute
>> > and try to make this better, so YES, it is very tempting to just
>> > disengage.
>> > I know I'm not alone in that, so I'd really encourage you to take it
>> > seriously when people say that they don't feel comfortable contributing
>> > to
>> > the mailing lists.
>> >
>> > To me, it seems like all the loudest voices are the ones having this
>> > conversation. As someone who participates less, I can say that the
>> > existence
>> > of a CoC (carefully drafted, with community input and caution about how
>> > to
>> > design this well) is something that would make me feel more comfortable
>> > here.
>> >
>> > "In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
>> > more
>> > value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to be
>> > the
>> > victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion of
>> > white
>> > males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status."
>> >
>> > +1 to that, and thanks to Nikos for pointing it out.
>> >
>> > My two cents.
>> > Emily
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Nikos Roussos <comzeradd at fsfe.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I have more interesting things to do in life,
>> >> > like mapping for example.
>> >>
>> >> So you only do one interesting thing at a time? Please let's avoid
>> >> undervaluing what other people may find interesting.
>> >>
>> >> > Any code of conduct will make people more or less autocensure. I
>> >> > can't
>> >> > see any interest of having that thing, unless for control.
>> >>
>> >> If a CoC make people to auto-censor from abusive behavior I'd say it's
>> >> worth it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is a nice read on the value of a CoC in a community:
>> >> http://incisive.nu/2014/codes-of-conduct/
>> >>
>> >> For those who don't have the time to read it all a very good argument
>> >> is
>> >> that "you aren’t creating a code of conduct only - or even primarily -
>> >> for
>> >> the people who are likely to break it. You’re creating it to make it
>> >> clear
>> >> to anyone who has been harmed or harassed, online or off, that your
>> >> space is
>> >> safe for them."
>> >>
>> >> In that context, and without any intention to offend anyone, I'd give
>> >> more
>> >> value in this matter to the opinion of people who are more likely to be
>> >> the
>> >> victims of harassment and abusive behavior, compared to the opinion of
>> >> white
>> >> males who argue out of the safety of their privileged status.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>> >
>>
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>
>



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