[Osmf-talk] What's our USP? | Re: "Legitimacy from an election process to direct attention" – Your response to the question regarding Working Groups

[Mikel Maron]

> And i also don't think it is appropriate to react to a serious discussion of  the essence and values of OSM with "But also, whatever. Does it matter?" - at least not for a current and wannabe future board member

All I want is the same thing as you ... a discussion of what OSM is about. That's not what I was reacting to. 

It was about the diversions aside. I don't think the "diversions" aside is helpful or should be taking seriously. That's what my statement was clearly about. I'm not seriously suggesting you go for a drink and sing with Heather. Should I just put big smiley face all over that paragraph? Or never try (and fail) to be funny? Can't we move on?

> it seems to me you are fully agreeing with Michal in his assessment - except for using the wrong term (because it has been proudly adopted by those originally meant to be vilified by it).

No I don't actually. If you want to engage with me, I'd appreciate if it was kept to specific points I'm making, and not broadly misrepresenting my point of view. I think you yourself want that of others. I'll try again.

I don't agree that's there's a meaningful distinction between craft and robot mapping or whatever (if that is what Michal is still saying, I don't think so but...). Machine learning assisted mapping is a technique, not a philosophy. Ultimately humans are involved with a set of beliefs about the map. You can care about the map and use RapID. You can also use a GPS and not give a crap. As I said, we definitely would have used RapID along with GPS on the Isle of Wight in 2006 if it was available -- the point was to have fun and do something together.

Also I disagree about the assessment of the "global South and East", or whatever we want to call "developing" countries. I've spent a lot of time mapping with and talking with people in these places, so I think I can speak to the challenges, which have much more to do with daily economics and difficulties of the logistics of daily life. In general, that makes it that much harder to get involved in OSM than it has been in the US and Europe.

10 years ago, I shared OpenStreetMap with people in the slums of Nairobi, and started Map Kibera. They've gone on to share OSM across Nairobi and the country, and influence efforts around the world. Just this morning I had an hour phone call with them, reviewing recent mapping efforts in rural Kenya. This project is all about caring about the map and connecting it to the places where people live and can create and use map data. It's been successful because of the entire OSM community and the growing accessibility of technologies.

> And yes, craft mapping is exactly the right terms because it so well catches the difference to the *industrial mapping* ideas you and Michal seem so universally and critiquelessly fond of.

Feels like you're putting words in my mouth. Again, I'd really appreciate engagement with specific ideas, rather than generalizations that misrepresent my views.

I am not supporting "industrial mapping" as you put it. I think it's possible to do work in OSM with care as part of your profession. I have plenty of critiques of things done in mass and without care. For example, I clearly shared my concerns at the HOT Summit and State of the Map about drive by large scale mapathons done with beginners and without validation efforts and strong emphasis on the on ramps to all aspects of mapping in OSM.

-Mikel

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron






On Friday, December 13, 2019, 01:52:27 PM EST, Christoph Hormann <chris_hormann at gmx.de> wrote: 






On Friday 13 December 2019, Mikel Maron wrote:
> [...]
> > What I wrote could be interpreted as “Anyone who wants a map should
> > leave OSM”, and that's totally not what I think, sorry for my poor
> > communication. 🙁 Mea culpa. I attempted to (tersely) say “OSM
> > provides more than “just” a map”.
>
> Ok cool! But also, whatever. Does it matter? Can we just move on to
> something more substantive, or as Rihards suggested, you all who want
> to argue about it can get drunk offline the mailing list and maybe
> sing a song together?

Sorry to disappoint - but i don't drink alcohol and i don't sing.  And i 
also don't think it is appropriate to react to a serious discussion of  
the essence and values of OSM with "But also, whatever. Does it 
matter?" - at least not for a current and wannabe future board member.

> That's nothing revolutionary, and actually something many people are
> looking to the Board to do something about, and something many
> candidates (including me) mention in our statements.
> [...]
> Regarding "craft" mapping and global South and East (which I don't
> think Michal meant as a specific dig at Russian mappers, but yes is a
> way overly broad reference what are sometimes labeled "developing"
> countries), I find the term "craft" so loaded as to be useless.
> [...]
> The reality is that any efforts to use machine generated data have
> been well designed to assist humans to map

It seems to me you are fully agreeing with Michal in his assessment - 
except for using the wrong term (because it has been proudly adopted by 
those originally meant to be vilified by it).

And yes, craft mapping is exactly the right terms because it so well 
catches the difference to the *industrial mapping* ideas you and Michal 
seem so universally and critiquelessly fond of.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/


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