[Osmf-talk] Africa as a training ground was RE: google Open Buildings usage request

[Pete Masters]

Hi grin,

I believe we do agree here despite the apparent disagreement.
>
> I made a general statement and your examples were pretty specific,
> which is in turn the best way to find specifics for my
> generalisations. :-)
>
> Without overexplaining it, I guess it's down to a few factors:
>

Thanks for clarifying and expanding on your point and I think you're right
- we are indeed much closer to agreement than I thought!

More generally, many of the topics and issues discussed in this thread are
ones that HOT is actively working on and, I think, part of the problem is
that we fail to communicate this well. This can mean that it looks like HOT
doesn't care (or at least doesn't listen or engage) and, as a result, that
some of these discussions end up feelijng somewhat gladitorial rather than
collaborative (which I assume no-one wants)! HOT can and should be better
in this regard...

HOT is also going through a period of change (see Tyler's diary from last
year [1] <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TylerOSM/diary/395003>) and
change takes time. I look forward to this conversation evolving as the
organisation does and welcome the fact that people contributing to this
thread, and on this list, come from a place of good intention and care for
OSM.

Cheers,

Pete

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/TylerOSM/diary/395003





On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 2:54 PM <grin-osm at drop.grin.hu> wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 21:57:35 +0100
> Pete Masters <pedrito1414 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > It seems to be a valid request that every remote mapping project
> > > started shall have at least one local coordinator, who can
> > > actaully help writing and updating the guidelines and oversee
> > > validation. This is mostly about about HOT, but generally about any
> > > organised remote mapping event.
>
> > Whilst I understand the intent behind what you're saying, I can't
> > agree with your blanket solution.
>
> I believe we do agree here despite the apparent disagreement.
>
> I made a general statement and your examples were pretty specific,
> which is in turn the best way to find specifics for my
> generalisations. :-)
>
> Without overexplaining it, I guess it's down to a few factors:
>
> - If there are known experienced mappers in an area they should be
>   known and contacted in case of any events related to their area of
>   effect. They may or may not want to get involved but I'd prefer to
>   offer them the choice and ask for their help, if possible. It helps
>   not just keeping the good mood but to have more precise mapping as
>   well.
>
> - If there aren't local people it's fine if someone organise from
>   abroad as long as s/he is familar with the area to some extent.  (It
>   is really counter-productive if people start mapping "traditional
>   stone guidances" as "buildings" or "communcation towers", as an
>   exaggerated example; though without guidance it'd have been a pretty
>   tough case to map for example the Nepal area a few years back where
>   the local photos and guidance were extremely needed as the local
>   structures were very different from my armchair-local environment.)
>
> I see problems with projects started by a very few individuals with
> usually lack of background, justification and often plan. These usually
> show very low familiarity with the remote area, and try to replace local
> knowledge with lots of goodwill. I usually avoid these events as I
> consider them dangerous: the chances that we create bad data is high. I
> prefer projects with example photos and sample mapping areas to show
> what looks what from up above.
>
>
> > I just think the discussion needs to be a little more nuanced
> > than it currently is in some regards.
>
> I have observed hurt feelings from local mappers and I can relate to
> that. If they live there they should be contacted and asked for
> guidance. Maybe they also need help (sometimes people acquire bad
> mapping habits which clashes the general project), but definitely they
> do need communication. That is true for every events, not just HOT.
> This shall be a compulsory step to examine when starting one, in my
> opinion. Maybe not even the first step, if quick response is needed,
> but within the first 10.
> If they reject or don't respond in time then you did the right thing,
> move to the next step.
>
>
> > the top ten listed, there are three managed by HOT, two from an
> > Indian NGO partner supported by HOT and five from local communities
> > in Africa, Asia and Latin America.
> > [...]
> > Once a community or organisation requests project management
> > permissions (and is onboarded on how) to use the tasking manager,
> > they take responsibility for their own projects.
>
> Sometimes "local communities" are actually just a few individuals, or
> at least it feels this way. I haven't recently checked whether there
> are guidelines about starting a new (HOT or else) event but I have
> mentioned (and others as well) a few points which should be suggested
> for new project admins.
>
> We (or at least I) are talking about mapping events and _not_ "HOT
> projects". HOT is a part of it, but definitely not all of it. And I
> have mentioned automatic mapping ("AI") which is a definitely different
> case.
>
> Thank you for your insights from within HOT! It is very useful to see
> what your problems and methods are.
>
> grin
>
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