[Osmf-talk] Tagging standards

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 10/20/22 03:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> this is assuming we all know what a feature is and how it is 
> defined/which are its core properties that must not miss. This is
> not so often the case on a global level.
> 
> For example we have such an issue with bar/cafe in Italy. „bar“s 
> (local name) are very important here, many people go there for 
> breakfast, you typically do not sit down (many don’t have tables at 
> all) but just get an espresso o cappuccino and a croissant and walk 
> out again.

I don't see what's wrong with:

amenity=cafe
takeaway=only

in this case.

> There are many variations of bars (mixed with tobacco shops, where
> people also pay utility bills, speeding tickets, etc.)
> scratchcards/lottery tickets etc., those combined with a pastry shop,
> with a restaurant, with a cafe, with an icecream shop, etc. Nearly
> all of them sell croissants (of vastly varying quality, baked on the
> premises vs. deep frozen industrial, i.e. suitable for breakfast or
> only for tourists/in an “emergency”), and also some sandwiches, but
> some also cook for lunch (typically small selection and cheaper than
> a restaurant).

Perhaps the best way to address this difference is just to realize that 
in Italy it's different and a bar frequently doubles as a cafe/sandwich 
shop/money transfer shop. I personally have added separate 
office=cheque_cashing and amenity=fast_food nodes on convenience stores 
as appropriate; it's understood that many if not most will sell lottery 
tickets and it's only rarely in the US that a shop will *only* sell 
lottery tickets (and here in Texas I don't even think it's allowed, you 
have to have some other primary product) so I never use shop=lottery.

There is at least one establishment that is effectively both a bar and 
amusement arcade, and I have dual-tagged it as both amenity=bar and 
leisure=amusement_arcade (it is the "pay once and everything is on free 
play" type of deal). It's ugly but they really are the same 
establishment under the same roof (you have to pay for the arcade even 
if you're just there to drink, but really nobody goes there just to drink).

> A similar question: can you assume from a shop=butcher that you’ll
> get a warm meal at lunchtime?

I wouldn't assume this. This should be dual-tagged or have two separate 
nodes if it really is a cafe/fast food/restaurant in addition to a 
butcher shop.

> Ah, and presets of course. The preset concept as a whole leads to many square pegs pushed in round holes, as in “it is clearly the most pertinent feature class of all available”. I don’t have a good answer for this, we can’t realistically require from everyone intending to contribute, to acquire a Phd in tagging before they begin. Maybe a guided process (similar to how it is done to determine a species in biology) would be an improvement, having the mapper answer several questions rather than being presented with a single term. Requires a lot of development work (maybe an ai could help?) for creating taxonomies and formal definitions.
There are a lot of stores that overlap between two different categories: 
Target (US) stores with the usual department store layout but also a 
grocery section comes to mind; Buc-ee's that often has fast food options 
along typical convenience store items, but isn't really a typical 
convenience store, and also doesn't neatly fit into any of the other 
neat "boxes" we have to categorize stores in; Lowe's and Home Depot 
stores that sell Ethernet cables and other electronics items as well as 
sodas near the checkouts (but that's not really enough to qualify for an 
additional shop=electronics or shop=convenience for me); and the list 
goes on. There really is no substitute for knowing the area and what a 
business actually sells/offers as it often will not necessarily fit 
neatly into the shop/amenity/leisure/office categories we have.

You want to talk about jamming square pegs into round holes, look at how 
we have to enter co-branded KFC/Taco Bell or Dunkin'/Baskin-Robbins 
locations. (To do it "right" it's two separate nodes even though they 
are the same location under the same roof.)

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com