[Tagging] Tags useful _SUMMARY_ for rendering of roads in poor conditions

David Bannon dbannon at internode.on.net
Sun Jan 12 04:53:35 UTC 2014


Oh, dave and all others ! So sorry, I did not include a link !

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Davo

Sigh....

David


On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 20:12 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> @David - where is the summary located exactly? I reckon I need a
> specific link to "your" Wiki" page.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:12 PM, David Bannon
> <dbannon at internode.on.net> wrote:
>         
>         OK folks, I have moved a draft summary of the discussion on
>         this topic
>         to my OSM wiki discussion page. Anyone with OSM Wiki
>         credentials is
>         welcome to edit it to try and make the choices clearer.
>         
>         if you don't have OSM credentials, feel free to post
>         corrections or
>         additions to me and I will put them in on your behalf.
>         
>         If we edit for a bit and then vote to determine what is the
>         popular
>         solution to this problem.
>         
>         We can then, if appropriate, turn it into a formal proposal
>         and really
>         vote.
>         
>         Please forgive me for being so late in getting this wiki page
>         up and
>         ready, been some unrelated family issues...
>         
>         david
>         
>         
>         On Sun, 2014-01-05 at 17:07 +1100, David Bannon wrote:
>         > OK, this discussion is huge and conducted in a great manner.
>         >
>         > But being so huge, I feel lost !  So, here is an attempt to
>         summarize
>         > where we are and what the options seems to be. Maybe by
>         identifying what
>         > we already agree on, we can see the way into the rest ?
>         >
>         > If people think its a good idea I could post a more evolved
>         summary onto
>         > my OSM wiki page where we could all have a hack at it, might
>         be more
>         > manageable than the mailing list ? If nothing else, we need
>         to break
>         > this very complicated problem into manageable hunks.
>         >
>         > Think of this somewhat like a flow chart, I just have not
>         drawn it up...
>         >
>         > Do we all agree that its important that significant maps,
>         such as the
>         > one on the OSM website, shows some indication if the road
>         may be in a
>         > state where some drivers are uncomfortable (right through to
>         > dangerous) ?
>         >
>         > If Yes, proceed, if No, please explain why not. You may like
>         to address
>         > this -
>         >
>         http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-07/25yo-man-dies-of-thirst-in-outback-queensland/4357380
>         > There are lots more. Tourists from outside Australia are at
>         particular
>         > risk.
>         >
>         > OK, assuming we agree we want 'something' ...
>         >
>         > We need some tag (or tags) associated with a way that tells
>         a rendering
>         > engine this way is one that might need caution. We can try
>         and use
>         > existing tags or invent a new one.
>         >
>         > The "new one" option (such as BGNO's trafficability) could
>         be tuned,
>         > based on experience, to do exactly what we want. On the
>         other hand there
>         > are currently no ways in the database using that new tag.
>         There are 3
>         > million surface= and 2.5 million tracktype= tags in there.
>         Mappers put
>         > used those tags in there for a reason.
>         >
>         > If you want a new tag defined, please say so, maybe with a
>         new subject ?
>         >
>         > Continuing on, assuming we support using existing tags,
>         which ones ? At
>         > lease three 'approved' candidates, four if you include
>         4wd_only.
>         >
>         > Surface= has about 3 million ways that are what we, in Oz,
>         call
>         > 'unsealed', dirt, sand, gravel, unpaved and so on. This is
>         not a bad fit
>         > but neither is it perfect.
>         http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Surface
>         > "To provide additional information about the physical
>         surface of
>         > roads/footpaths...." However, my experience is that a
>         precise statement
>         > about the surface does not necessarily relate to its
>         > "trafficability" (thanks for the term BGNO!). I have driven
>         sandy roads
>         > that were so easy and somewhere else, spent a day with a
>         shovel digging
>         > through sand. Similarly, hard packed clay can sometimes be
>         preferable to
>         > a made gravel road that has developed severe corrugations.
>         And a sealed,
>         > tarmac road that is breaking up is a nightmare.
>         >
>         > Tracktype= has about 2.5 million grade2 and beyond ways.
>         "Tracktype is a
>         > measure of how well-maintained a track or other minor road
>         is."
>         > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tracktype
>         > Thats a lot closer to what someone (or a router) might be
>         wanting to
>         > know. It can and should be applied to all sorts of highway=
>         ways, not
>         > just =track and that seems to be a major problem. In some
>         people's view
>         > (Malenki..), it should be used only when highway=track. I
>         and several
>         > other people (and the wiki) disagree. The values of
>         Tracktype are not
>         > intuitive. The values are linearly expandable, to cover more
>         extreme
>         > road conditions, grade6 is already widely used but not
>         approved.
>         >
>         > Smoothness= has about 25 thousand ways. Thats drawing the
>         line at
>         > very_bad. But there are another 40 thousand 'bads' so its
>         hard to call.
>         > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness
>         > I am personally convinced this tag would be used heaps more
>         if the
>         > values did not seem to make some moral judgment ! As I said
>         before, I
>         > could never label the pretty road I live on as "horrible".
>         > There is some support for making a new set of values and
>         that would be
>         > cool (Fernando, Martin). But has the horse already bolted ?
>         Surface= and
>         > tracktype each have more than 100 times more use.  Further,
>         if we come
>         > up with new values, why not a new name ? Truth is,
>         'smoothness' is only
>         > a small aspect of trafficability (there, I used it again!).
>         >
>         > 4wd_only=yes.  Used 3 thousand times, more in Australia than
>         elsewhere.
>         > In hindsight, maybe it could have done with at least three
>         values,
>         > 'recommended', 'yes', 'extreme'. It does cut in somewhat
>         beyond the spot
>         > we are talking about, I get the impression that people want
>         a road
>         > labeled differently long before we get to
>         4wd_only=recommended.
>         >
>         > Any one of the above, or a combination ? Personally, I think
>         a
>         > combination would be over complicating it. Just my view.
>         >
>         >
>         > Other Issues -
>         >
>         > How to render it ?  That can come later on I guess.
>         >
>         > Wolfgang, Peter, Janko, Gerald  warns about subjective tags.
>         Truth is,
>         > almost everything we record is subjective to some degree.
>         I'd take the
>         > legal approach where they talk about a "reason person's
>         view". For a
>         > normal road, thats someone driving a conventional car. For a
>         mountain
>         > bike track, its someone riding a mountain bike....
>         > Fernando pointed out that to make a truly objective
>         assessment, we'd
>         > need many more tags and some elaborate technology to
>         measure. Gerald
>         > suggested a smartphone app to do the measuring but is he
>         allowing for
>         > variation of suspension in the vehicle in use ?
>         > David S and Dominic don't seem to want more detailed
>         measures either.
>         >
>         > David S reminds us what highway= tag is about. Its to
>         describe the
>         > purpose of a road, not in any way its
>         "trafficability" (David S said
>         > "usability but I am starting to like trafficability...). he
>         is right but
>         > the anomaly is highway=track, its use opens up, at present,
>         the
>         > tracktype modifiers, wrong, wrong....
>         >
>         > One important effect of the highway= tag is "more important"
>         roads get
>         > rendered at lower zoom numbers. Useful when you want to see
>         how to get
>         > from A to B. Sadly, we hear of people taging important roads
>         as =track
>         > so their usability can be described by tracktype. And then
>         you cannot
>         > see them at all at sensible zoom levels. Sigh....
>         >
>         >
>         > Now, I have not mentioned everyone nor every view,
>         impossible !  Thats
>         > why I think its time to move to the wiki, perhaps show a
>         series of
>         > options and just see who really wants to vote for what.
>         >
>         > But, I really must thank Fernando for driving this issue,
>         its very, very
>         > important and damn hard as well !
>         >
>         >
>         > David
>         >
>         > On Fri, 2014-01-03 at 21:10 -0200, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>         > >  a massive contribution...
>         >
>         >
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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