[Tagging] Tags useful _SUMMARY_ for rendering of roads in poor conditions
David Bannon
dbannon at internode.on.net
Sun Jan 12 04:53:35 UTC 2014
Oh, dave and all others ! So sorry, I did not include a link !
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Davo
Sigh....
David
On Fri, 2014-01-10 at 20:12 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> @David - where is the summary located exactly? I reckon I need a
> specific link to "your" Wiki" page.
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:12 PM, David Bannon
> <dbannon at internode.on.net> wrote:
>
> OK folks, I have moved a draft summary of the discussion on
> this topic
> to my OSM wiki discussion page. Anyone with OSM Wiki
> credentials is
> welcome to edit it to try and make the choices clearer.
>
> if you don't have OSM credentials, feel free to post
> corrections or
> additions to me and I will put them in on your behalf.
>
> If we edit for a bit and then vote to determine what is the
> popular
> solution to this problem.
>
> We can then, if appropriate, turn it into a formal proposal
> and really
> vote.
>
> Please forgive me for being so late in getting this wiki page
> up and
> ready, been some unrelated family issues...
>
> david
>
>
> On Sun, 2014-01-05 at 17:07 +1100, David Bannon wrote:
> > OK, this discussion is huge and conducted in a great manner.
> >
> > But being so huge, I feel lost ! So, here is an attempt to
> summarize
> > where we are and what the options seems to be. Maybe by
> identifying what
> > we already agree on, we can see the way into the rest ?
> >
> > If people think its a good idea I could post a more evolved
> summary onto
> > my OSM wiki page where we could all have a hack at it, might
> be more
> > manageable than the mailing list ? If nothing else, we need
> to break
> > this very complicated problem into manageable hunks.
> >
> > Think of this somewhat like a flow chart, I just have not
> drawn it up...
> >
> > Do we all agree that its important that significant maps,
> such as the
> > one on the OSM website, shows some indication if the road
> may be in a
> > state where some drivers are uncomfortable (right through to
> > dangerous) ?
> >
> > If Yes, proceed, if No, please explain why not. You may like
> to address
> > this -
> >
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-07/25yo-man-dies-of-thirst-in-outback-queensland/4357380
> > There are lots more. Tourists from outside Australia are at
> particular
> > risk.
> >
> > OK, assuming we agree we want 'something' ...
> >
> > We need some tag (or tags) associated with a way that tells
> a rendering
> > engine this way is one that might need caution. We can try
> and use
> > existing tags or invent a new one.
> >
> > The "new one" option (such as BGNO's trafficability) could
> be tuned,
> > based on experience, to do exactly what we want. On the
> other hand there
> > are currently no ways in the database using that new tag.
> There are 3
> > million surface= and 2.5 million tracktype= tags in there.
> Mappers put
> > used those tags in there for a reason.
> >
> > If you want a new tag defined, please say so, maybe with a
> new subject ?
> >
> > Continuing on, assuming we support using existing tags,
> which ones ? At
> > lease three 'approved' candidates, four if you include
> 4wd_only.
> >
> > Surface= has about 3 million ways that are what we, in Oz,
> call
> > 'unsealed', dirt, sand, gravel, unpaved and so on. This is
> not a bad fit
> > but neither is it perfect.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Surface
> > "To provide additional information about the physical
> surface of
> > roads/footpaths...." However, my experience is that a
> precise statement
> > about the surface does not necessarily relate to its
> > "trafficability" (thanks for the term BGNO!). I have driven
> sandy roads
> > that were so easy and somewhere else, spent a day with a
> shovel digging
> > through sand. Similarly, hard packed clay can sometimes be
> preferable to
> > a made gravel road that has developed severe corrugations.
> And a sealed,
> > tarmac road that is breaking up is a nightmare.
> >
> > Tracktype= has about 2.5 million grade2 and beyond ways.
> "Tracktype is a
> > measure of how well-maintained a track or other minor road
> is."
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tracktype
> > Thats a lot closer to what someone (or a router) might be
> wanting to
> > know. It can and should be applied to all sorts of highway=
> ways, not
> > just =track and that seems to be a major problem. In some
> people's view
> > (Malenki..), it should be used only when highway=track. I
> and several
> > other people (and the wiki) disagree. The values of
> Tracktype are not
> > intuitive. The values are linearly expandable, to cover more
> extreme
> > road conditions, grade6 is already widely used but not
> approved.
> >
> > Smoothness= has about 25 thousand ways. Thats drawing the
> line at
> > very_bad. But there are another 40 thousand 'bads' so its
> hard to call.
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness
> > I am personally convinced this tag would be used heaps more
> if the
> > values did not seem to make some moral judgment ! As I said
> before, I
> > could never label the pretty road I live on as "horrible".
> > There is some support for making a new set of values and
> that would be
> > cool (Fernando, Martin). But has the horse already bolted ?
> Surface= and
> > tracktype each have more than 100 times more use. Further,
> if we come
> > up with new values, why not a new name ? Truth is,
> 'smoothness' is only
> > a small aspect of trafficability (there, I used it again!).
> >
> > 4wd_only=yes. Used 3 thousand times, more in Australia than
> elsewhere.
> > In hindsight, maybe it could have done with at least three
> values,
> > 'recommended', 'yes', 'extreme'. It does cut in somewhat
> beyond the spot
> > we are talking about, I get the impression that people want
> a road
> > labeled differently long before we get to
> 4wd_only=recommended.
> >
> > Any one of the above, or a combination ? Personally, I think
> a
> > combination would be over complicating it. Just my view.
> >
> >
> > Other Issues -
> >
> > How to render it ? That can come later on I guess.
> >
> > Wolfgang, Peter, Janko, Gerald warns about subjective tags.
> Truth is,
> > almost everything we record is subjective to some degree.
> I'd take the
> > legal approach where they talk about a "reason person's
> view". For a
> > normal road, thats someone driving a conventional car. For a
> mountain
> > bike track, its someone riding a mountain bike....
> > Fernando pointed out that to make a truly objective
> assessment, we'd
> > need many more tags and some elaborate technology to
> measure. Gerald
> > suggested a smartphone app to do the measuring but is he
> allowing for
> > variation of suspension in the vehicle in use ?
> > David S and Dominic don't seem to want more detailed
> measures either.
> >
> > David S reminds us what highway= tag is about. Its to
> describe the
> > purpose of a road, not in any way its
> "trafficability" (David S said
> > "usability but I am starting to like trafficability...). he
> is right but
> > the anomaly is highway=track, its use opens up, at present,
> the
> > tracktype modifiers, wrong, wrong....
> >
> > One important effect of the highway= tag is "more important"
> roads get
> > rendered at lower zoom numbers. Useful when you want to see
> how to get
> > from A to B. Sadly, we hear of people taging important roads
> as =track
> > so their usability can be described by tracktype. And then
> you cannot
> > see them at all at sensible zoom levels. Sigh....
> >
> >
> > Now, I have not mentioned everyone nor every view,
> impossible ! Thats
> > why I think its time to move to the wiki, perhaps show a
> series of
> > options and just see who really wants to vote for what.
> >
> > But, I really must thank Fernando for driving this issue,
> its very, very
> > important and damn hard as well !
> >
> >
> > David
> >
> > On Fri, 2014-01-03 at 21:10 -0200, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> > > a massive contribution...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
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> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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